Peter Schiff Calls Strategy a Fraud, Challenges Saylor to Debate

[coinrifft]

As a neutral viewer. I'd like to see MS to accept the challenge to debate. I think it's good for entertainment purpose. I know almost everyone hated Peter, but let's take it easy. 

Same here, I do hope that Michael Saylor accepted this challenge once and for all. Gonna be fun and entertaining while it last. Just for the last time and then let it rest already.

It's also interesting to see how MS will break down how his current business is working. The last time i've heard he borrowed more money to buy bitcoin, but can also pay the loan use MSTR shares when it's due.

Or let's see how Saylor will defend it, everything is open, he had this strategy for a while now, borrowing money to buy bitcoin. But it could be that the attack was obviously coming from where the price of Bitcoin is dumping. So it's a perfect opportunity from Peter to go on the offensive. When we are in the bull run or at least the price is going up at the start of the year, Peter was no longer attacking, or at least the attack is subtle. But now that the price is tanking and we are in the bearish season already, his attacks become brutal to the point that he wanted a debate now.

Was looking though as how much this guy net worth is: Schiff at $70 million, Saylor at $5.9 billion.

So take your pick as who you want to listen to in terms of strategies.  

[headingnorth]

Bitcoin may be inferior to gold in many ways but calling it a fraud just makes Schiff look ignorant.
There are more intelligent ways to make your argument without the tiresome name-calling.

I agree that name-calling isn't a great way for Schiff to start his argument... However, I really hope this debate happens.  Schiff also isn't calling Bitcoin a fraud, he is calling Strategy a fraud and I agree with him.  

There is no way that Saylor doesn't see that he has created a money burning machine with his recent STRx offerings.  He pumped Bitcoin every way he could and now his shareholders are going to pay the price as the check falls on them.  With no more new offerings likely able to raise funds and his stock trading at negative value to holdings, I don't even know how he is going to continue paying his obligations.  We are about to see quite the drama unfold.

Schiff is always saying bitcoin is a scam or a Ponzi scheme. That is the same as calling it a fraud.
There are more productive ways of making one's case for gold without the lame childish attacks.

But I think Saylor is equally dumb when he says bitcoin will someday replace gold or silver.
Gold and silver are heavily used in industry and manufacturing. Every person on earth owns gold and silver
in one form or another. It is in their cellphones, computers, cars, etc. people wear it as jewelry.
Central banks buy gold to back their currency, etc.

Bitcoin can achieve some success as a niche asset but it can never reach that kind of universal adoption.

[coolcoinz]

Schiff is doing that for attention, trying to milk the market a bit more while gold has failed to reclaim the ATH and is falling.

On the other hand this feud is stupid because both bitcoin and gold show the same weakness of the fiat system. They are going to keep printing, fiat will continue to debase, gold and bitcoin are in the long run going to gain value. It's of course easier to attack bitcoin than fiat because most of the gold bugs are old folks who were being robbed by 5% inflation their whole lives, so they fell it's the way it should be. Telling them what's up might get them angry at the messenger, instead of the system. That's why Schiff is avoiding this and going after bitcoin.

[adaseb]

So what exactly is he doing wrong?

When he buys bitcoin, he issues more shares. And most buyers of MSTR already know that. They buy it because before we had ETFs it was the only way to invest in bitcoin indirectly if you didn’t want to buy the futures or that Bitcoin futures etf.

And it happened in the past where it was overvalued and many shorted the stock while hedging with bitcoin. The NAV is negative but it happens in bear markets.

It’s a publicily traded company and we all see their books so I think Peter is way out of line here.

[FinneysTrueVision]

Strangely, Peter Schiff keeps showing up at all these crypto conferences. It goes to show what they have become. It’s a good business for the organizers, but there’s not much value for somebody who is interested in the technology behind cryptocurrencies.

As far as him trying to start a feud with Michael Saylor, he is probably doing it for attention, but there is also some valid criticism. His claims are exaggerated, but not too different from the criticism that Saylor typically receives. Strategy’s mNAV premium has disappeared and those who bet against the stock, like Jim Chanos, have made a nice profit.

If Schiff really believes what he is saying, and isn’t just blowing hot air, then he should put his money where his mouth is and open a short position on MSTR.

[Darker45]

It may be a fraud from one perspective, but genius from another. Knowing Peter, however, he certainly won't agree with the latter. He'll continue to bark despite Bitcoin reaching one ATH after another, despite Bitcoin treasuries hitting milestone after milestone, despite making himself a fool in the process.

Aside from being bitter he missed the bus, this old man is playing his game. He badly needs to stay in the radar. This is his way to gain relevance. This is his way to market his business.

[hero_the_bossman]

It may be a fraud from one perspective, but genius from another. Knowing Peter, however, he certainly won't agree with the latter. He'll continue to bark despite Bitcoin reaching one ATH after another, despite Bitcoin treasuries hitting milestone after milestone, despite making himself a fool in the process.

Aside from being bitter he missed the bus, this old man is playing his game. He badly needs to stay in the radar. This is his way to gain relevance. This is his way to market his business.

The bait is to bark, the result - the attention.

It would be better if he just told something truly interesting about BTC or MS, because such behavior seen now is not..

[Free Market Capitalist]

I think flapduck's post sums it all up. I wouldn't be surprised if Saylor agreed to debate him, as he debates with everyone, and I remember the Bitcoin vs. Gold debate a few years ago with Giustra.

But what is Schiff going to say? We already know that Bitcoin is (supposedly) not backed by anything, that it's a Ponzi scheme because people who buy it are simply hoping that someone else will buy it for a higher price, and that Strategy, being a leverage play on Bitcoin, is an even bigger Ponzi scheme.

As flapduck says, this is his year, and I mentioned it in my gold thread some time ago. This year, gold has done very well, especially compared to Bitcoin, so instead of looking ridiculous like in previous years, he feels emboldened.

[Alpha Marine]

Same here, I do hope that Michael Saylor accepted this challenge once and for all. Gonna be fun and entertaining while it last. Just for the last time and then let it rest already.

Giving him the attention he wants already makes him the winner. No matter how the outcome of the debate goes, he wins because he gets the attention he so desperately craves. The best thing to do is to avoid him or brush off his claims.
When I first read the news, I thought within myself if it was okay to call a publicly traded company a fraud, knowing fully well that they can lose money and trust with baseless statements like that. If he feels Gold and Bitcoin are mutually exclusive then ignore him and his opinions.

Was looking though as how much this guy net worth is: Schiff at $70 million, Saylor at $5.9 billion.

So take your pick as who you want to listen to in terms of strategies.  

I don't think net worth is the only thing you can use to determine whose advice you can listen to or not anyway. Trump is worth over $5 billion dollar, but there are many people with way less money Id rather take financial opinions from.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Schiff has been a permabull goldbug for as long as I've been familiar with his name, and even though gold is soaring at the moment I haven't seen him pop up on youtube (and I guess I haven't been looking for news on gold anyhow).  My thought is that if his voice isn't being heard loud enough in the media, he might just be pulling a stunt here with his verbal slap across Michael Saylor's ever-moving mouth.

I would not go so far as to call MSTR a fraud, but I'll just say that I'm not a huge fan of Saylor, treasury reserves using crypto, or any large institution--whether it be part of the government or in the private sector--buying up large amounts of any crypto.  It just does not sit right with me after watching people on the forum over the years cheering when a new merchant started accepting BTC, or even before my time when Laszlo bought those two pizzas and how that became such an important part of bitcoin's history.

Fuck Schiff and Saylor.  End of rant.

[ultrloa]

It may be a fraud from one perspective, but genius from another. Knowing Peter, however, he certainly won't agree with the latter. He'll continue to bark despite Bitcoin reaching one ATH after another, despite Bitcoin treasuries hitting milestone after milestone, despite making himself a fool in the process.

Aside from being bitter he missed the bus, this old man is playing his game. He badly needs to stay in the radar. This is his way to gain relevance. This is his way to market his business.

The bait is to bark, the result - the attention.

It would be better if he just told something truly interesting about BTC or MS, because such behavior seen now is not..

Provably it is and Peter Schiff provably know that he would get lots of attention if he target the largest institution to have debate with him.

There's no sense for Saylor to take that challenge since Schiff is well known idiot which does not respect the decision of investors does not like his opinion.

Much better for Saylor to focus on his company and his accumulation, rather than wasting his time on close minded dude because he won't get anything from Schiff. If people stop listening on rage baiting act of Schiff for sure this dude will stop especially if he know that no people listen or believe on whatever things he said.

[EarnOnVictor]

I think some people may be afraid of bitcoin not to take gold place.

I expect people to know better by now. The decentralisation of Bitcoin will not make the biggest investors (including central banks) shortchange it for Gold. There's no competition here, but an illusion created by people of varied sentiment.

But at the end, bitcoin always remain a store of value for patient people.

I think Bitcoin will hold true to this characteristic if we sensibly buy it at a cheaper price, and not at a higher price. It becomes riskier when purchasing at a higher price.

We should always consider the "law of diminishing returns" as the price gets heavier.

[Satofan44]

You seriously believe fiat was backed by gold randomly? Do you imagine they just put some random assets on pieces of paper and picked a random one out of a bowl?

Of course, unless you think that the whole development of human kind is pre-ordained by an entity like God and could not have happened by any other way or in any other order.   It is pure chance that silver and gold are relevant at all.

Comparing sudden lack of oxygen in the world to power loss.. Yep. You’re clearly delusional.

Fuck off with your gold shit retard. It is one of the worst things that exists. Useless junk of metal with infinite supply and a few limited industrial uses. If you use it for jewelry it just shows how low your IQ is.  

Same here, I do hope that Michael Saylor accepted this challenge once and for all. Gonna be fun and entertaining while it last. Just for the last time and then let it rest already.

Nonsense. This would be a waste of time and you are part of the people that are completely naive and who believe that you can "win a debate" against someone who has already fixed their mind on something.

Schiff has been a permabull goldbug for as long as I've been familiar with his name, and even though gold is soaring at the moment

Gold is complete junk though. The only thing worse than goldbugs are silverbugs. People in both groups are completely delusional idiots. I know many who decided to buy silver instead of Bitcoin a decade ago. Because if the gold price is high that means that silver will eventually be highly priced, right? 

I would not go so far as to call MSTR a fraud, but I'll just say that I'm not a huge fan of Saylor, treasury reserves using crypto, or any large institution--whether it be part of the government or in the private sector--buying up large amounts of any crypto.  It just does not sit right with me after watching people on the forum over the years cheering when a new merchant started accepting BTC, or even before my time when Laszlo bought those two pizzas and how that became such an important part of bitcoin's history.

Why would it be okay to have reserves of anything? Why would it be okay that there are companies that hold stock at all? Because the thing in question is slightly different? Business entities instead of money? Why do we have the FOREX market at all then if this is a bad thing? There is nothing wrong with Saylor's strategy as long as he does not go too much into debt. Essentially he is just converting infinite fiat to Bitcoin. Why shouldn't he? If people want to give him more money to dilute his stock and buy more Bitcoin great for him. You wouldn't do this if you could?  

[suzanne5223]

https://coinpaper.com/12391/peter-schiff-calls-strategy-a-fraud-challenges-saylor-to-debate

Are you sure Peter Schiff is not just only saying this but some gangs behind him telling him to tell people this rubbish? He is a critic, he does not want anything good with bitcoin.

I think some people may be afraid of bitcoin not to take gold place. They could have seen something like that early but they just want to avoid it as they know people may follow their advice.

But at the end, bitcoin always remain a store of value for patient people.

I think this man is beyond a bitcoin critic.

Yes,  Peter Schiff's negative statement about Bitcoin is beyond criticism, and I can remember years ago when CBS TV station, which technically belongs to Blackrock, was saying negative things about Bitcoin during their morning show program, but everything has now changed to positive statements after Blackrock adopted BTC.
I believe this is also the case we're seeing with Peter Schiff's who mainly invests in stocks, gold, etc. So I won't be surprised if some elite who don't like BTC paid or support him in spreading FUD about BTC.

You seriously believe fiat was backed by gold randomly?

Don't tell me you're talking about the government and Central banks as a true statement when they said they backed fiat currency with gold when the government and the monetary policy introduced backed every currency.

Do you imagine they just put some random assets on pieces of paper and picked a random one out of a bowl?

They just print random currency to benefit their selfish reason and cause inflation. This is why they adopted the monetary policy that will weaken fiat currency.
Don't tell me that in this 21st century, you actually trust the central bank model of monetary operation?

[_act_]

I expect people to know better by now. The decentralisation of Bitcoin will not make the biggest investors (including central banks) shortchange it for Gold. There's no competition here, but an illusion created by people of varied sentiment.

Bitcoin is not a replacement or substitute but an alternative.

The central banks of many countries are preparing to have bitcoin in reserves by now. In the next 2 to 3 years, many countries would have bitcoin reserves.

Bitcoin is not used as a legal tender currency in the countries, bitcoin decentralization is not a problem.]

[EarnOnVictor]

I wonder why all what you wrote are with loopholes, which makes it look as if you are trying to defend what you couldn't defend rightly. To avoid doubt, Bitcoin is great and cool, but many people should stop the illusion of comparison. And "you" should specifically face the reality, rather than defending with empty points.

I expect people to know better by now. The decentralisation of Bitcoin will not make the biggest investors (including central banks) shortchange it for Gold. There's no competition here, but an illusion created by people of varied sentiment.

Bitcoin is not a replacement or substitute but an alternative.

Very correct! But do people see it that way?

The central banks of many countries are preparing to have bitcoin in reserves by now. In the next 2 to 3 years, many countries would have bitcoin reserves.

You mean "strategic reserve?" You can't compare that with a true and dedicated country's reserve. And in that 2-3 years you cited, let's see the progress in the value saved so far. Talk is cheap!

Bitcoin is not used as a legal tender currency in the countries, bitcoin decentralization is not a problem.]

In case you don't know, most countries want to deal with Bitcoin, but what they can't control, they tread carefully with it. That is where the decentralisation is an issue in this context, so don't get it twisted. Is Bitcoin's decentralisation bad? Heck No! Regardless, the government will do their thing.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

I sometimes watch Schiff for laughs, but lately he's been euphoric. He seems to be ecstasy drunk or something. Since gold has done very well this year, he categorically states that not only Bitcoin, but all cryptocurrencies are worthless, that they are going to collapse, and that this will not only lead to the loss of a lot of money but also jobs in that sector. He also says that AI is an even bigger bubble than cryptocurrencies. It seems that for him, everything is a bubble except what he recommends, which is gold and mostly foreign (US) stocks.

As for the possible debate, I couldn't care less. For me, if it happened, it would be like two deaf people arguing.

[cryptoaddictchie]

As a neutral viewer. I'd like to see MS to accept the challenge to debate. I think it's good for entertainment purpose. I know almost everyone hated Peter, but let's take it easy. 

It's also interesting to see how MS will break down how his current business is working. The last time i've heard he borrowed more money to buy bitcoin, but can also pay the loan use MSTR shares when it's due.

I have nothing against both but since Im living in crypto world, I'd like to see MS goes against a hater. His a critic for a reason and Ms speaking for bitcoin with utmost truth will slap the man and eat his own medicine. Peter loves to criticize bitcoin as if it's not existence  maybe give it to the next generations.

[Satofan44]

You seriously believe fiat was backed by gold randomly?

Don't tell me you're talking about the government and Central banks as a true statement when they said they backed fiat currency with gold when the government and the monetary policy introduced backed every currency.

You didn't get his post at all, you need to look at the context in which he is writing this. He was trying to create a retarded rebuttal to my statement which is objectively true. That gold every had any value and was chosen as a reserve asset was completely a random event in the evolution of mankind, like most things.

They just print random currency to benefit their selfish reason and cause inflation. This is why they adopted the monetary policy that will weaken fiat currency. Don't tell me that in this 21st century, you actually trust the central bank model of monetary operation?

Again, you didn't read the context and tried to respond. Your response therefore makes no sense at all. Don't worry though even if you didn't understand what I was talking about with him, he's very retarded and it would not surprise me that he believes his local priest or imam on any kind of shit that they are told.  

I wonder why all what you wrote are with loopholes, which makes it look as if you are trying to defend what you couldn't defend rightly. To avoid doubt, Bitcoin is great and cool, but many people should stop the illusion of comparison. And "you" should specifically face the reality, rather than defending with empty points.

Gold is decentralized too, but it is shitty and risky. Therefore your counterargument to Bitcoin fails. It is you who is living in a delusion of knowledge and writing empty points. There is already 1 central bank that is buying Bitcoin as a test. I guess that is something that I made up in my mind.  

Very correct! But do people see it that way?

Everyone can see it however they want. Fiat currencies are destined to fail. If you don't realize that something is an substitute or alternative early, circumstances will force you to realize it at a later time and a much higher price.

You mean "strategic reserve?" You can't compare that with a true and dedicated country's reserve. And in that 2-3 years you cited, let's see the progress in the value saved so far. Talk is cheap!

Enough of this bullshit dismissal. If you had insistently told people 10 years ago that Bitcoin would be $125k and have all record breaking ETFs, state and national reserves being considered in the year 2025 you would have put in an asylum. The progress of Bitcoin is extraordinary, mind-blowing, record breaking, and a once in a century event. You should be celebrating it, and not trying to find little snarky rebuttals.

If you believe in God, these events are a fucking divine miracle. Meanwhile you, a random nobody, that is shitposting for Betpanda tries to downplay this as if you had actually accomplished anything worthwhile in your life.  

[0x000369]

lmao peter schiff at it again dude been screaming fraud since btc was like 10 bucks and look where we at now 90k+ and still climbing

his whole gig is goldbug central sells precious metals runs that brokerage so of course he gotta bash anything that steals the spotlight from his shiny rocks its free marketing every time btc dips he pops out like clockwork stirring shit for clicks and follows

saylor gonna wipe the floor if he even bothers debating this clown mstr strategy aint fraud its just leveraged btc play everyone knows what they signing up for issuing debt to stack sats while price moons worked like a charm so far shareholders eating good long term

schiff missed the boat years ago now he just salty af trying to fud his way back relevant but btc dont care it just keeps winning

classic schiff energy whos even listening to him anymore lol