[CLOSED] S.DICE - SatoshiDICE 100% Dividend-Paying Asset on MPEx

[Abu22]

BTW - having read through this thread over the past few hours to get more background on what has been going on, regarding Abu22:

You're really obnoxious. Please sell your shares and stop making this thread such a miserable place to spend time.

Quite true, my eyes started bleeding a little

Well, kindly look back to where I instantiated my core questions (all of which are yet be answered in a suitable manner). My tone of writing should not make the content of it invalidated... reading so shallowly into it will always yield an inferior understanding of whats it aims are/were.

...

I 100% agree that there is always room for legit questions, and the showing of support for them to be answered...when they become ignored. +1 to to those who see that the information being supplied is insufficient.

(SD PR, halo??)

[romerun]

I keen to hear about the new games/development. I'm no interested in the IT salaries as they are the least important. The site and service are solid in the past one and half month, sdice employees are deserved of what they're paid.

[evoorhees]

Quick announcement - This month is progressing well with site performance. I am going to take this opportunity to have SD retain up to 4k in earnings for June at the end of the month. This means that dividends on earnings up to 4k won't be paid for June (ie - if the site earns 5k, then dividends will be paid on only 1k of earnings).

Before you yell and scream, let me explain the purpose.

Currently I have, personally, provided an ongoing interest-free loan of roughly 6100 btc to SD that is used by SD as its betting pool. This is money that is at risk of hacks and losses, but I've permitted SD to use it because it needed a capital pool. The risk to me was tolerable when Bitcoin was $10-12 each. Now, however, that's a ton of money, and I would like to withdraw the loan.

Thus, earnings for this month (June) will be retained by SD for the purpose of replacing this pool. The pool needs to be roughly 3-4k btc, so the site is on track to earn this amount this month. It's thus a perfect time to do the swap.

Note that because these earnings are retained and owned by SD, if and when they are ever paid out or released from SD, they will go to all shareholders. Thus the betting pool held by SD will from now on be an asset of SD instead of a liability owed to me.  Therefore MPEX holders will, after June, own 13% of the betting pool fund assets. If the site is ever closed down, sold, etc, these funds would be liquidated out to shareholders.

Hopefully that's not too confusing. Please let me know if you have questions about it.

Kind regards,
-Erik

[evoorhees]

Evorhees, can you please publish SDICE balance sheet too? Nothing fancy, just a summary of company's assets, liabilities and shareholders equity. As of May 31 is OK.

Thank you.

+1

I'm looking to invest but would like to see up to date financials to have a better understand of where SatoshiDICE is at...

Thanks,
Eric

I agree the financial statements I create in google docs aren't ideal. I'm not an accountant, after all. I will find someone by the end of June to prepare more formal statements, so that starting in July the finances are documented properly. It won't be anything elaborate, just something more professional. If any of you have an example of simple financial statements which you'd like me to use to model the SD statements, please link them here or send to me.

[Korbman]

I'm with you man, accounting sucks.

if I had known beforehand a Business Admin BA and an MBA was 60% accounting I would have told them all to....

....keep up the good work because accounting can be difficult.

[MPOE-PR]

Quick announcement - This month is progressing well with site performance. I am going to take this opportunity to have SD retain up to 4k in earnings for June at the end of the month. This means that dividends on earnings up to 4k won't be paid for June (ie - if the site earns 5k, then dividends will be paid on only 1k of earnings).

Before you yell and scream, let me explain the purpose.

Currently I have, personally, provided an ongoing interest-free loan of roughly 6100 btc to SD that is used by SD as its betting pool. This is money that is at risk of hacks and losses, but I've permitted SD to use it because it needed a capital pool. The risk to me was tolerable when Bitcoin was $10-12 each. Now, however, that's a ton of money, and I would like to withdraw the loan.

Thus, earnings for this month (June) will be retained by SD for the purpose of replacing this pool. The pool needs to be roughly 3-4k btc, so the site is on track to earn this amount this month. It's thus a perfect time to do the swap.

Note that because these earnings are retained and owned by SD, if and when they are ever paid out or released from SD, they will go to all shareholders. Thus the betting pool held by SD will from now on be an asset of SD instead of a liability owed to me.  Therefore MPEX holders will, after June, own 13% of the betting pool fund assets. If the site is ever closed down, sold, etc, these funds would be liquidated out to shareholders.

Hopefully that's not too confusing. Please let me know if you have questions about it.

Kind regards,
-Erik

Not only is it incredibly poor form to make such announcements unilaterally, whether the proposed measure is ever implemented or not, it'd seem on the surface that what you are contemplating is plainly in breach of your contract with MPEx.

[Factory]

Not only is it incredibly poor form to make such announcements unilaterally, whether the proposed measure is ever implemented or not, it'd seem on the surface that what you are contemplating is plainly in breach of your contract with MPEx.

While I understand Eric's position- this would most definitely be breaking the contract held with MPEx. He stated the main reason he wanted to create this offering was to sell a portion of equity of s.dice so that he had less exposure to it and had some liquid btc. By providing such a large loan to s.dice goes against the entire reason he was making this offering in the first place. The way he is attempting to settle this loan is against the contract and is against the best interest of shareholders- something management must always be mindful of.

[nimda]

Wait a moment... I thought the money from the initial shares sold went to the pool?

[GeoRW]

Quick announcement - This month is progressing well with site performance. I am going to take this opportunity to have SD retain up to 4k in earnings for June at the end of the month. This means that dividends on earnings up to 4k won't be paid for June (ie - if the site earns 5k, then dividends will be paid on only 1k of earnings).

Before you yell and scream, let me explain the purpose.

Currently I have, personally, provided an ongoing interest-free loan of roughly 6100 btc to SD that is used by SD as its betting pool. This is money that is at risk of hacks and losses, but I've permitted SD to use it because it needed a capital pool. The risk to me was tolerable when Bitcoin was $10-12 each. Now, however, that's a ton of money, and I would like to withdraw the loan.

Thus, earnings for this month (June) will be retained by SD for the purpose of replacing this pool. The pool needs to be roughly 3-4k btc, so the site is on track to earn this amount this month. It's thus a perfect time to do the swap.

Note that because these earnings are retained and owned by SD, if and when they are ever paid out or released from SD, they will go to all shareholders. Thus the betting pool held by SD will from now on be an asset of SD instead of a liability owed to me.  Therefore MPEX holders will, after June, own 13% of the betting pool fund assets. If the site is ever closed down, sold, etc, these funds would be liquidated out to shareholders.

Hopefully that's not too confusing. Please let me know if you have questions about it.

Kind regards,
-Erik

Not only is it incredibly poor form to make such announcements unilaterally, whether the proposed measure is ever implemented or not, it'd seem on the surface that what you are contemplating is plainly in breach of your contract with MPEx.

+1, this wasn't anywhere in the contract. If you want to squeeze more money out of S.DICE then sell your shares. You already introduced several very questionable monthly expenses and now you want to steal further dividends and throw more risk on investors' shoulders. You already got paid very well and you should stick by S.DICE and make it better, not to flee sinking ship like a rat.

[GeoRW]

Wait a moment... I thought the money from the initial shares sold went to the pool?

That money went to Eric directly, which is basically the same. But he will say otherwise  Next step will be taking dividends in exchange for company assets (servers, website, know-how ...) 

[MPOE-PR]

I agree, but what exactly is going to be done about it assuming Erik just takes the money. MPOE-PR has no power to enforce anything (but delist the asset and screw over everyone who invested and thus keep the money like they did with the giga PT)

Be very careful guys...

This may come as a surprise to you, but the world isn't entirely made out in your own image. There's really two kinds of people: the adults, who actually follow contracts, and the infantile scum, who don't care what's right or wrong past the very simple "what power is there to force me do what I should do in the first place". This incidentally is why nobody gives a shit about what you have to say, here or anywhere else.

[DutchBrat]

Quick announcement - This month is progressing well with site performance. I am going to take this opportunity to have SD retain up to 4k in earnings for June at the end of the month. This means that dividends on earnings up to 4k won't be paid for June (ie - if the site earns 5k, then dividends will be paid on only 1k of earnings).

Before you yell and scream, let me explain the purpose.

Currently I have, personally, provided an ongoing interest-free loan of roughly 6100 btc to SD that is used by SD as its betting pool. This is money that is at risk of hacks and losses, but I've permitted SD to use it because it needed a capital pool. The risk to me was tolerable when Bitcoin was $10-12 each. Now, however, that's a ton of money, and I would like to withdraw the loan.

Thus, earnings for this month (June) will be retained by SD for the purpose of replacing this pool. The pool needs to be roughly 3-4k btc, so the site is on track to earn this amount this month. It's thus a perfect time to do the swap.

Note that because these earnings are retained and owned by SD, if and when they are ever paid out or released from SD, they will go to all shareholders. Thus the betting pool held by SD will from now on be an asset of SD instead of a liability owed to me.  Therefore MPEX holders will, after June, own 13% of the betting pool fund assets. If the site is ever closed down, sold, etc, these funds would be liquidated out to shareholders.

Hopefully that's not too confusing. Please let me know if you have questions about it.

Kind regards,
-Erik

I understand the need for a reserve, and that is why companies usually don't payout 100% of their profits as dividends.
But why now all of a sudden instate the whole reserve fund this month. It would be much more elegant to do it over a few months by paying out 75% of the profits and retaining the other 25% to allocate to the fund.... and again, it should have been like this from the start...

[Peter Lambert]

Not only is it incredibly poor form to make such announcements unilaterally, whether the proposed measure is ever implemented or not, it'd seem on the surface that what you are contemplating is plainly in breach of your contract with MPEx.

Could you please go into more detail how this breaches the MPEx contract (maybe I am just missing something?)?

Doing in gradually, with 10 or 25% of profits going to the reserve fund seems much more reasonable to me, rather than doing it all at once. Is this where the problem is, that the contract says 100% of profits go to dividends? Couldn't you just list it as an expense to pay off the loan which gets taken out before profits are calculated?

[evoorhees]

Hmmm why am I not surprised that this caused more fuss. Not a single, "hey Erik thanks for providing an interest-free loan of half a million dollars to SD for the past six months, I understand it's time for SD to hold its own betting pool."

MPOE-PR.... how does this violate the contract (either in letter or intent)?

nimda... why would you think the revenue from sold shares would be property of SD? They were my shares, which I sold, thus the BTC from that sale is mine, not the company's.  

GeoRW... I'm not trying to "squeeze any money out of the company." The 6100 btc held in the better pool belongs to me, and had been used by SD, interest free, since the creation of the site. I think it's appropriate for SD to own its own betting pool. There are two ways to do this: dilute shareholders to raise capital (which I will never do), or retain earnings for a period of time to acquire a betting pool.

Why is this contentious?

[evoorhees]

Doing in gradually, with 10 or 25% of profits going to the reserve fund seems much more reasonable to me, rather than doing it all at once. Is this where the problem is, that the contract says 100% of profits go to dividends? Couldn't you just list it as an expense to pay off the loan which gets taken out before profits are calculated?

Sure, it could be done gradually such that a % of earnings each month go to building up the pool. I'd rather just get it over with, do one single month without dividends and then problem solved. Remember too that 87% of the dividends would have gone to me and my private partner anyway. So I'm not treating mpex holders any differently than I'm treating myself. It's not like I'm paying my own dividend and then retaining the dividend of mpex holders. Is that what people thought I meant??

And yes I could write it off as a "cost" of SD, to create its own betting pool. But it seems a much better deal for shareholders if the earnings are simply retained as the betting pool. Then, the shareholders still own the btc. Instead of it being paid out in June, it sits in the SD wallet, paid out at some liquidation event in the future, and allowing the site to earn all its profits until then.

[Peter Lambert]

Doing in gradually, with 10 or 25% of profits going to the reserve fund seems much more reasonable to me, rather than doing it all at once. Is this where the problem is, that the contract says 100% of profits go to dividends? Couldn't you just list it as an expense to pay off the loan which gets taken out before profits are calculated?

Sure, it could be done gradually such that a % of earnings each month go to building up the pool. I'd rather just get it over with, do one single month without dividends and then problem solved.

"I'd rather ..." yeah, that is what would be good for you, but as the manager of SatoshiDice you have the responsibility to do what would be good for the shareholders. Seems there is a conflict of interest here.

[RationalSpeculator]

Quick announcement - This month is progressing well with site performance. I am going to take this opportunity to have SD retain up to 4k in earnings for June at the end of the month. This means that dividends on earnings up to 4k won't be paid for June (ie - if the site earns 5k, then dividends will be paid on only 1k of earnings).

Before you yell and scream, let me explain the purpose.

Currently I have, personally, provided an ongoing interest-free loan of roughly 6100 btc to SD that is used by SD as its betting pool. This is money that is at risk of hacks and losses, but I've permitted SD to use it because it needed a capital pool. The risk to me was tolerable when Bitcoin was $10-12 each. Now, however, that's a ton of money, and I would like to withdraw the loan.

Thus, earnings for this month (June) will be retained by SD for the purpose of replacing this pool. The pool needs to be roughly 3-4k btc, so the site is on track to earn this amount this month. It's thus a perfect time to do the swap.

Note that because these earnings are retained and owned by SD, if and when they are ever paid out or released from SD, they will go to all shareholders. Thus the betting pool held by SD will from now on be an asset of SD instead of a liability owed to me.  Therefore MPEX holders will, after June, own 13% of the betting pool fund assets. If the site is ever closed down, sold, etc, these funds would be liquidated out to shareholders.

Hopefully that's not too confusing. Please let me know if you have questions about it.

Kind regards,
-Erik

Erik, is 3-4k enough for the betting pool? What if sdice has an unusual unlucky month and goes over that?

Would you be willing to dedicate yourself to an open credit line for a few 1000 btc so that sdice is not broke in such case?

Thanks for having offered the interest free loan to sdice. It helped greatly in offering a strong capital basis to sdice in it's first year of existence. Makes good sense you want to withdraw those funds to your personal account.

[Peter Lambert]

I think MPOE-PR is refering to this part of the contract:

(f)Immediately upon publication of each Statement of Profit and Loss SatoshiDice will pay to shareholders as dividends a fraction of no less than 100% (one hundred percent) of the Net Profits, if any.

Which seems to be saying that the company cannot retain any profits.

[Yogafan00000]

The thing that irks me is the surprise of it all.  Shares are down and we finally get a good month, and this announcement is a bit of a kick in the nuts.

Why not do it gradually, take 10% everytime we get a good month?

Shouldn't take long due to the great abilities of the management and superb skills of the IT staff we are paying for, right?

Right?

[evoorhees]

Doing in gradually, with 10 or 25% of profits going to the reserve fund seems much more reasonable to me, rather than doing it all at once. Is this where the problem is, that the contract says 100% of profits go to dividends? Couldn't you just list it as an expense to pay off the loan which gets taken out before profits are calculated?

Sure, it could be done gradually such that a % of earnings each month go to building up the pool. I'd rather just get it over with, do one single month without dividends and then problem solved.

"I'd rather ..." yeah, that is what would be good for you, but as the manager of SatoshiDice you have the responsibility to do what would be good for the shareholders. Seems there is a conflict of interest here.

Of course. But the math is as follows - 3-4k BTC needs to be retained in order to create an asset betting pool for SD. If not, then I have a personal loan to SD indefinitely.

The only conflict of interest here is that I was being extremely generous about letting SD use that money for free, and now I need to go back to being normal, and establish a betting pool for SD with its own funds.

Strictly speaking, in the narrowest interest of an s.dice shareholder, Erik (me) should continue to loan the 6100 btc to the site forever, for free. But sorry, I'm not going to do that. Anyone have a good suggestion if my plan is so terrible?