Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[DeathAndTaxes]

what econ class did you take?  that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.

Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me.

Only in Bitcoin land.  For some reason some clueless people started incorrectly using it that way and it stuck.  For the entire rest of the planet ... in every other financial scenario ... no.

ROI is return ON investment.  breaking even is 0% ROI.  Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI.

[Meizirkki]

what econ class did you take?  that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.

Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me.

In Bitcoin land yes for some reason people started using it that way and it stuck.  For the entire rest of the planet ... no.

ROI is return ON investment.  breaking even is 0% ROI.  Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI.

wikipedia disagrees with you, sir.

[Puppet]

What on earth is that?

Horten Ho 229
(dont ask me why its posted there)

[Xialla]

breaking even is 0% ROI.

.)) joking, right?

[ASIC-K]

what econ class did you take?  that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.

Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me.

In Bitcoin land yes for some reason people started using it that way and it stuck.  For the entire rest of the planet ... no.

ROI is return ON investment.  breaking even is 0% ROI.  Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI.

wikipedia disagrees with you, sir.

lol, you are using wikipedia. Thats your first problem.

[DeathAndTaxes]

what econ class did you take?  that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.

Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me.

In Bitcoin land yes for some reason people started using it that way and it stuck.  For the entire rest of the planet ... no.

ROI is return ON investment.  breaking even is 0% ROI.  Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI.

wikipedia disagrees with you, sir.

No it doesn't.  I mean if you are going to take the time to "correct" me, at least correct me correctly.

From YOUR cite

return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100
or
return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment[1]

GROSS REVENUE =/= PROFIT.

If you miner costs 100 BTC and you produce 100 BTC in GROSS REVENUE, then your profit would be 100 BTC - 100 BTC = 0 BTC.
ROI% = 0 BTC / 100 BTC
ROI% = 0%

If your miner costs 100 BTC and you produce 150 BTC in GROSS REVENUE, then your profit would be 150 BTC - 100 BTC = 50 BTC.
ROI% = 50 BTC / 100 BTC
ROI% = 50%.

If your miner costs 100 BTC and you produce 20 BTC in GROSS REVENUE.  Then your profit would be -80 BTC.
ROI% = -80 BTC / 100 BTC
ROI% = -80%.

Note to simplify I didn't include electrical costs.  Electrical cost should also be subtracted from gross revenue.

It is the same concept in stocks. If you bought shares of xyz mining corp for 1 BTC and you received 0.1 BTC in dividends and then later sold the shares at a loss for 0.8 BTC, your gain would be -0.1 BTC (0.8 sale price +0.1 dividend -1.0 purchase price).  A loss is a negative gain.  Your investment was 1 BTC and your gain -0.1 BTC.  Your ROI% = -0.1 / 1.0 = -10%.   You have a negative 10% return on your capital ("you lost 10%").

[btc_uzr]

FYI
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/10/guide-to-calculating-roi.asp

[DeathAndTaxes]

breaking even is 0% ROI.

.)) joking, right?

No.  It is a very basic financial concept.  Breaking even is no PROFIT.  REVENUE =/= PROFIT.   ROI% measures PROFIT. 

[xyzzy099]

what econ class did you take?  that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.

Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me.

In Bitcoin land yes for some reason people started using it that way and it stuck.  For the entire rest of the planet ... no.

ROI is return ON investment.  breaking even is 0% ROI.  Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI.

wikipedia disagrees with you, sir.

No it doesn't.  If net profit is negative, ROI is negative.

return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_Investment

[Puppet]

No.  It is a very basic financial concept.  Breaking even is no PROFIT.  REVENUE =/= PROFIT.   ROI% measures PROFIT.

ah shoo, why did you have to tell them?
Now they will stop perordering all those "ROI" generating miners that will secure our network.


Well, that is if they understand " =/= "

[creativex]

breaking even is 0% ROI.

.)) joking, right?

No.  It is a very basic financial concept.  Breaking even is no PROFIT.  REVENUE =/= PROFIT.   ROI% measures PROFIT.

It's terrifying how few seem to grasp this simple notion.

[timmmers]

Anyone looking at the mining dashboard estimates before buying ANY rigs now...that's got to be a cooler. You struggle to find anything that will reach break even on there now, except the Jupiter delivered in Sept/ Oct and the price is the november discount one not the price anyone actually likely to get one in those months paid.

Even if it's not accurate it's bound to make people think twice unlike 2 or 3 months back when it looked a lot rosier if not exactly bright.

I think it's possible that miners will become much harder to sell, and even moreso on pre-order given the near future losses they are likely to make. Some serious price cuts would be required to improve that.

Even at 5k, would you buy a Jupiter today knowing it would arrive in mid November and never break even? That's looking likely now. So who is going to be buying them?  

[Meizirkki]

I stand corrected. Thank you.

I guess this was a leftover from my earlier confusion, ROI meaning realisation of investment. (In which case my claim would be accurate - hopefully  )

[rolling]

I think the problem is in understanding English.  ROI is not return "OF" your investment, it is return "ON" your investment!  Huge difference.

[creativex]

Anyone looking at the mining dashboard estimates before buying ANY rigs now...that's got to be a cooler. You struggle to find anything that will reach break even on there now, except the Jupiter delivered in Sept/ Oct and the price is the november discount one not the price anyone actually likely to get one in those months paid.

Even if it's not accurate it's bound to make people think twice unlike 2 or 3 months back when it looked a lot rosier if not exactly bright.

I think it's possible that miners will become much harder to sell, and even moreso on pre-order given the near future losses they are likely to make. Some serious price cuts would be required to improve that.

Even at 5k, would you buy a Jupiter today knowing it would arrive in mid November and never break even? That's looking likely now. So who is going to be buying them?

Nope. Vendor pre-order queues are already filled with pre-orders though. Hashfast just came off their sale in which you could get 1.2Th for $6k + shipping...allegedly for November shipping(more likely December). That's $5/Gh with knc at $12.5/Gh. Prices are falling so fast I don't see why people are still lining up to order gear...but they are.

[btc_uzr]

hm, I'm wondering whether selling the miners under this term to private persons without VAT-ID prevents them from sticking to eu customer laws ?
  'The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.'

I cannot imagine that. Remember Rpi trouble with EU consumer protection laws ?
Another reason is otherwise everything would be sold as 'business use only' in the EU in order to get rid of those consumer protection, no ?


So one might enforce a refund anytime.
  see chapter 5, http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_info/10principles/en.pdf

As well as sending back the miner after 7days of mining.
 http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

[Rampion]

I think the problem is in understanding English.  ROI is not return "OF" your investment, it is return "ON" your investment!  Huge difference.

EXACTLY.

ROI is return ON your investment, and thus means the gains you get from an investment.

If you invest 10BTC on a miner and you get 10BTC back, you got NO ROI, you just reached the break-even point. ROI is everything that comes AFTER that point (or, if you lost money, it's the amount of money you lost in relation to your investment - that's NEGATIVE ROI, which is also possible). That's what ROI means in ALL the word, but in this forum somebody started to use it as a synonym of break-even, and everybody followed... Which is fun and ludicrous at the same time.

When you are doing a profit&loss for your company, or for a specific operation,  in your excel you will have two very clear and different things: BEP (break even point) and ROI (which is usually expressed as a percentage). So, when people here writes "you won't even reach ROI", in reality they mean "you won't even reach break even".

If you got a positive ROI, you got profit. If you got a negative ROI, you lost money. If you didn't get any ROI, you have recouped all your investment and thus reached break-even.

EDIT: as Death&Taxes just wrote, this is a very basic financial concept... But I guess 99% of BTC miners don't know sh*t about finances, and that's why they rush to preorder miners from which they will get a negative ROI

[soy]

Anyone looking at the mining dashboard estimates before buying ANY rigs now...that's got to be a cooler. You struggle to find anything that will reach break even on there now, except the Jupiter delivered in Sept/ Oct and the price is the november discount one not the price anyone actually likely to get one in those months paid.

Even if it's not accurate it's bound to make people think twice unlike 2 or 3 months back when it looked a lot rosier if not exactly bright.

I think it's possible that miners will become much harder to sell, and even moreso on pre-order given the near future losses they are likely to make. Some serious price cuts would be required to improve that.

Even at 5k, would you buy a Jupiter today knowing it would arrive in mid November and never break even? That's looking likely now. So who is going to be buying them?  

Perhaps users who figure getting bitcoin to spend on the slik road is safer via mining then legal tender.

[Puppet]

hm, I'm wondering whether selling the miners under this term to private persons without VAT-ID prevents them from sticking to eu customer laws ?
  'The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.'

I cannot imagine that. Remember Rpi trouble with EU consumer protection laws ?
Another reason is otherwise everything would be sold as 'business use only' in the EU in order to get rid of those consumer protection, no ?


So one might enforce a refund anytime.
  see chapter 5, http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_info/10principles/en.pdf

As well as sending back the miner after 7days of mining.
 http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

Interesting point. That would be a huge worry for me if I were selling mining hardware. But arguably there is a provision for this in the legislation.

Unless the parties have agreed otherwise, the consumer may not
exercise the right of withdrawal provided for in paragraph 1 in respect
of contracts:
— for the provision of services if performance has begun, with the
consumer's agreement, before the end of the seven working day
period referred to in paragraph 1,
— for the supply of goods or services the price of which is dependent
on fluctuations in the financial market which cannot be controlled
by the supplier

Thats from the EU directive:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:1997L0007:20071225:EN:PDF

If that were to come to court, I think it could swing either way.

[Carlton Banks]

Anyone looking at the mining dashboard estimates before buying ANY rigs now...that's got to be a cooler. You struggle to find anything that will reach break even on there now, except the Jupiter delivered in Sept/ Oct and the price is the november discount one not the price anyone actually likely to get one in those months paid.

Even if it's not accurate it's bound to make people think twice unlike 2 or 3 months back when it looked a lot rosier if not exactly bright.

I think it's possible that miners will become much harder to sell, and even moreso on pre-order given the near future losses they are likely to make. Some serious price cuts would be required to improve that.

Even at 5k, would you buy a Jupiter today knowing it would arrive in mid November and never break even? That's looking likely now. So who is going to be buying them?  

Exactly.

I keep investigating all the possibilities (and the new ones when they appear) and I am seeing no good opportunities, just potential wrenching heartbreak. I keep thinking "what's the best opportunity of all?" and I keep concluding "do nothing for now".