Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[Paladin69]

This is the most bizarre thing i've ever seen. It has to be the only business where a company's own customers will go to any length to ensure the company does not succeed. The selfishness and greed is absolutely sickening.

Let's see:
Maybe 900 day 1/2 units, since you said 700 dispatched and I would guesstimate around 200 left:
650*7000+250*3500= 5,425 Million
Cost:
650*2500+250*1250= 1,9375 Million (guesstimate)

Profit:
3,4875 Million  -> Without profit from hosting.

Loss from day1/2 customers because of late shipment: ranging from 0 to 3000$ (ofc it should be denominated in btc, but just for the fun of it) (following formula for ~loss per day for customers with 140$/btc)
((900*1,7)+(850*1,7)+(800*1,7)+(750*1,7)+(700*1,7)+(650*3,4)+(550*1,3)+(500*1,3)+(450*1,3)+(400*1,3)+(350*1,3)+(300*1,3)+(250*2,6))*140=1,8165 Million

Now: Cost of adding a production line capable of producing those orders in 2 days? I would hazard a wild guess and say about 800k$ max.

Now, let's say that every customer who got his unit until Saturday 5th was content with it (I know I would've been): ~1,3 Million for the other 650 units.

So please tell me again who is greedy and selfish! They made this much with day1/2 orders alone, without hosting, without October orders.
WE are not that customers OWN customers, we are CUSTOMERS.
The only one greedy is KNC not offering honest and deserved compensation for customers and hoping they are too lazy to go to court for a measly 2500+$ per unit!
The only one selfish is, again, KNC for pulling out margins upon margins but not having those margins where it counts - at the (only real) bottleneck - the final assembly/production.

Well if you like many attempted to calculate ROI on ordering one of the Jupiter units back when the shipping date was first week of September and difficulty was bellow
90 million and a difficulty increase of 30% every 10.8 Days.

 

Below is a screen shot of what you can expect if you get your unit October 16th and if the network difficulty goes up by 30% and the value of btc is $140USD when you decide to part with them.

If you think the difficulty is going to hit 22 billion by april you are fooling yourself.  That is completely ridiculous.  Yes, we're having >100% increases a month but the network can't double every month and keep that up.

No it won't be 22 billion.  But 4-5 billion by April is very possible.  Just wait till hardware is marked down which will cause more irrational buying.  These ASIC chips and boards probably cost $50 each.  ASIC manufacturers will adjust accordingly so they can continue to sell equipment.  The ball is in their court.

[thorvald]

I don`t get it
it is a business  profit is needed 
if you can do it better then please do it if not don`t be a troll
I`ve waited for my Avalon for 10 months and it was broken
they delivered with just some days delays
one board was broken and they change it in one week
800+pages for what

 And second time I am flagged as a troll today.
You waited on an Avalon and it was broken. That is bad, but it has nothing to do with the present situation. Your Avalon came at a time where difficulty and it's increase was nowhere near today. Also, I don't call 14 days some days delay.
One of your boards was broken and they changed it? Good for you. It seems all the people trying to flag me as a troll are the ones who got good customer service and an earlier delivery time.
What I posted was not that they don't deserve profit. I posted a calculation of customers losses vs KNC's profit margin and that they could have avoided the whole thing with another margin in final production. Also keep in mind that those are only the profits from day1/2 and that the costs per unit estimated by me are way too high.

The calculation is not correct
you have to subtract the research and asic mask/production
The price was high based on the available hardware at the moment (the price was similar to Avalon batch 2/3)
Profit will came for them after day 3 :d
I`m just say that all the asic manufactures are in it for profit , remember 80 btc for an Avalon.....
We are in it also for profit in the long run (the time for fast profit vanished with the first asic product except for the early customers)
From may part of view they are between one of the more best asic manufactures
As in the Avalon/bfl case we all made a calculated risk .
If you don`t want to risk you don`t buy .
We will not make the roi in btc but in us the roi is in half a year~ 110price per btc.

[Bargraphics]

Of course I left some things out. His quote of the (copy pasted with huge letters) terms of service and bullshit regarding them reserving my place in the queue while I "funded" the remaining VAT and this little marvel:
"When looking at the entire picture of this order I find that there are no grounds for you to demand any form of compensation at all and as such we will not offer any form of compensation in this case."

Oh great you left out the part that this is just you, instead letting people imagine it is a general blanket thing applying to everyone. Nice trolling.

-MarkM-

Honestly, I'm not sure what else you expected with the biggest fussers in this thread.

Nice, calling me a troll. How about you post something substantial instead of posting some insults. As I recall, you got 11 miners bargraphics? Try imagined you still not had them hosted. What would you do? It is a general blanket thing, but you would know that if you had read my first post regarding his answer instead of fucking around MarkM.  Also, he has to directly deny my claim for compensation, not only deny it in general. But you would know that if you had any kind of knowledge regarding trade law.

Whoa relax,

I'm sorry you are so taken back by being called a "Fusser".

If my order was a Day 1 or Day 2 and I still did not have them hosted, I would call and talk with a KnC Rep (Which I did when they were not hosted for 5 days).
I used courtesy not immediate threats and my voice was heard.

If you are not a day 1 or 2 then your not due til October 15th after which you try to make a case for compensation. However I would be very interested in hearing a court case about you receiving a unit that "Prints Money" and because it is late you will not "Print enough money to pay for the machine".

actually, that was meant for MarkM Fusser is perfectly fine by me. I actually talked with them several times and was always lied right into my face (by lack of a better analogy). Being told my order is in progress and will be shipped in the next few days... Calls were made on the 2nd, 5th and 8th. first they told me the order would be in shipped Wednesday or Thursday, so I expected it on the 4th. On the 5th I called them several times, but as Orama stated they DO NOT WORK on weekends. On the 8th my final call was made and was answered with they had some problems but ramped up production and I could expect my order to be shipped Thursday (the 10th).  
As repeatedly stated I am a day 2, and also as stated before I would have no problems whatsoever if my Order was an October order.
And the court case would be more along the lines of me having lost the opportunity to generate an amount of btc and having to buy that amount in real money.
It is not a money printing machine, it's more of a "mining equipment". And try imagining a courtcase where a coal mining company lost revenue because their new giant dirt eating monster unit was delivered 2 weeks late. I think their chances would stand pretty good, don't you think?

That's fine,

You definitely have a reason to be upset but honestly posting on this forum isn't going to help you. You would be better off just calling again and being courteous because most companies will immediately shut you out if you start flinging threats of litigation at them. They are working through this so we'll see if there would be compensation.

You would have to argue that BTC is a commodity that you are selling as a business, I guess if you could prove that maybe.

[Bargraphics]

You also lost potential return if you used the funds to purchase the BTC you would have an even greater return in $ if you sold those higher then what you purchased them.

Case and point. Picked up 175 BTC at $86 USD the other day could of sold them today for $142 USD but instead bailed out a friend at $123 usd.

Who do I sue for not buying Google Stock when it was low and selling it now for a profit? Someone has to pay!

[Slartybardfast]

Well I am happy, i am online in the DC and received my first part of a coin today. Go KNC.

[Sitarow]

This is the most bizarre thing i've ever seen. It has to be the only business where a company's own customers will go to any length to ensure the company does not succeed. The selfishness and greed is absolutely sickening.

Let's see:
Maybe 900 day 1/2 units, since you said 700 dispatched and I would guesstimate around 200 left:
650*7000+250*3500= 5,425 Million
Cost:
650*2500+250*1250= 1,9375 Million (guesstimate)

Profit:
3,4875 Million  -> Without profit from hosting.

Loss from day1/2 customers because of late shipment: ranging from 0 to 3000$ (ofc it should be denominated in btc, but just for the fun of it) (following formula for ~loss per day for customers with 140$/btc)
((900*1,7)+(850*1,7)+(800*1,7)+(750*1,7)+(700*1,7)+(650*3,4)+(550*1,3)+(500*1,3)+(450*1,3)+(400*1,3)+(350*1,3)+(300*1,3)+(250*2,6))*140=1,8165 Million

Now: Cost of adding a production line capable of producing those orders in 2 days? I would hazard a wild guess and say about 800k$ max.

Now, let's say that every customer who got his unit until Saturday 5th was content with it (I know I would've been): ~1,3 Million for the other 650 units.

So please tell me again who is greedy and selfish! They made this much with day1/2 orders alone, without hosting, without October orders.
WE are not that customers OWN customers, we are CUSTOMERS.
The only one greedy is KNC not offering honest and deserved compensation for customers and hoping they are too lazy to go to court for a measly 2500+$ per unit!
The only one selfish is, again, KNC for pulling out margins upon margins but not having those margins where it counts - at the (only real) bottleneck - the final assembly/production.

Well if you like many attempted to calculate ROI on ordering one of the Jupiter units back when the shipping date was first week of September and difficulty was bellow
90 million and a difficulty increase of 30% every 10.8 Days.

 

Below is a screen shot of what you can expect if you get your unit October 16th and if the network difficulty goes up by 30% and the value of btc is $140USD when you decide to part with them.

If you think the difficulty is going to hit 22 billion by april you are fooling yourself.  That is completely ridiculous.  Yes, we're having >100% increases a month but the network can't double every month and keep that up.

The purpose of these exponential growth projections is to help those inexperienced with bitcoin network difficulty realize that what they should be focusing on is BTC return over the lifetime of the product.

Considering the risks associated with any pre-order it is time that manufacturers also consider the customers situation when pricing the $ value of the unit.

Avalon did it well on their first and second batches pricing wise vs number of units to be sold. Wish they would have been able to deliver them in volume.

Here is a link to something that I feel is my optimistic view as respects network difficulty.

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=249506922&dcosts=31200&diff_mincrease=35&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=2200000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=140&dpowcon=2400&btcusd_mincrease=3&pcost=0.13&calcweeks=25&dleadtime=0&action=calc#

Please understand that an exercise in awareness rarely is doing disservice to others.

[DPoS]

The next difficulty jump will close to 40% due to mass knc delivery (BFL and bitfurry is also running up fast)    No chance of ROI at all even for the first day delivery customer

Previous estimation indicate a total mining income of 5x "coins mined in the first difficulty pefirod" during its lifespan, now only 3x to be expected

yet everyone keeps on turning on more miners!!  why won't everyone else turn theirs off!

/sarc

[Puppet]

Here is a link to something that I feel is my optimistic view as respects network difficulty.

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=249506922&dcosts=31200&diff_mincrease=35&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=2200000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=140&dpowcon=2400&btcusd_mincrease=3&pcost=0.13&calcweeks=25&dleadtime=0&action=calc#

Out of curiosity, what makes you think the growth will start slowing down next difficulty retargeting?
It will start slowing down at some point, no one doubts that, but so far, its been speeding up (http://bitcoin.sipa.be/growth.png) and all the major roll outs have yet to happen.

[DPoS]

trepex was kind enough to send me the uptime output of is saturn and it seems my therory is moot since the beagleboard avg load is almost the same of my jupiters

thanks for checking back with that..  if it didn't cost me money to be KNC testbed I would love to figure it out more

I did email KNC if they would sell more control/beagle board units so we can split them up if we wish.. no word yet

[Sitarow]

You also lost potential return if you used the funds to purchase the BTC you would have an even greater return in $ if you sold those higher then what you purchased them.

Case and point. Picked up 175 BTC at $86 USD the other day could of sold them today for $142 USD but instead bailed out a friend at $123 usd.

Who do I sue for not buying Google Stock when it was low and selling it now for a profit? Someone has to pay!

Well for your analogy with application to Bitcoin would be more along the lines of the following.

You are an employee of google and have the opportunity of investing further with the company. You work directly with the projects and can see the direction and volume of future orders (BTC value). You wish to get a bigger piece of the pie so you try to go it alone and get some side projects in the works rather than invest in the company directly (BTC).

Either way you are investing into the project. Via hardware, services, or in the currency itself.

With bitcoin, we have access to far greater information and market sentiment than any individual company negotiating for their place in the global economy.

But I digress from the original theme of this thread.

[ur0pl]

I bought two Jupiters. I need at least one of them shipped by now. I cannot take this. I am going crazy.

[Sitarow]

Here is a link to something that I feel is my optimistic view as respects network difficulty.

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=249506922&dcosts=31200&diff_mincrease=35&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=2200000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=140&dpowcon=2400&btcusd_mincrease=3&pcost=0.13&calcweeks=25&dleadtime=0&action=calc#

Out of curiosity, what makes you think the growth will start slowing down next difficulty retargeting?
It will start slowing down at some point, no one doubts that, but so far, its been speeding up (http://bitcoin.sipa.be/growth.png) and all the major roll outs have yet to happen.

More people will get the idea of how to invest into btc and see other opportunities open up.

Who knows. Maybe a public bitcoin ETF in the states. But then again. WHO KNOWS....

That is the risk of participating rather than just using BTC.

[dextryn]

The purpose of these exponential growth projections is to help those inexperienced with bitcoin network difficulty realize that what they should be focusing on is BTC return over the lifetime of the product.

Considering the risks associated with any pre-order it is time that manufacturers also consider the customers situation when pricing the $ value of the unit.

Avalon did it well on their first and second batches pricing wise vs number of units to be sold. Wish they would have been able to deliver them in volume.

Here is a link to something that I feel is my optimistic view as respects network difficulty.

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=249506922&dcosts=31200&diff_mincrease=35&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=2200000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=140&dpowcon=2400&btcusd_mincrease=3&pcost=0.13&calcweeks=25&dleadtime=0&action=calc#

Please understand that an exercise in awareness rarely is doing disservice to others.

I understand what you're saying, and I do think that Genesis block and the other companies have given people more tools on this than have ever been provided before.  I just don't want people to think the future is that bleak...It is pretty bleak, don't get me wrong...just not THAT bleak.

[Sitarow]

The purpose of these exponential growth projections is to help those inexperienced with bitcoin network difficulty realize that what they should be focusing on is BTC return over the lifetime of the product.

Considering the risks associated with any pre-order it is time that manufacturers also consider the customers situation when pricing the $ value of the unit.

Avalon did it well on their first and second batches pricing wise vs number of units to be sold. Wish they would have been able to deliver them in volume.

Here is a link to something that I feel is my optimistic view as respects network difficulty.

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=249506922&dcosts=31200&diff_mincrease=35&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=2200000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=140&dpowcon=2400&btcusd_mincrease=3&pcost=0.13&calcweeks=25&dleadtime=0&action=calc#

Please understand that an exercise in awareness rarely is doing disservice to others.

I understand what you're saying, and I do think that Genesis block and the other companies have given people more tools on this than have ever been provided before.  I just don't want people to think the future is that bleak...It is pretty bleak, don't get me wrong...just not THAT bleak.

I could not agree more

Speaking of investments

Oct. 9, 2013, 3:05 p.m. - **Debit cards have arrived as a new withdrawal option! (In Beta)
https://www.cavirtex.com/news

Oh and they have an IPO...
https://www.havelockinvestments.com/fund.php?symbol=VTX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvELpQ83ApA&feature=youtu.be

Edit: I think that this is a far more likely scenario as to network difficulty and bitcoin value projection.
BTCInvest link

[1l1l11ll1l]

The purpose of these exponential growth projections is to help those inexperienced with bitcoin network difficulty realize that what they should be focusing on is BTC return over the lifetime of the product.

Considering the risks associated with any pre-order it is time that manufacturers also consider the customers situation when pricing the $ value of the unit.

Avalon did it well on their first and second batches pricing wise vs number of units to be sold. Wish they would have been able to deliver them in volume.

Here is a link to something that I feel is my optimistic view as respects network difficulty.

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=249506922&dcosts=31200&diff_mincrease=35&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=2200000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=140&dpowcon=2400&btcusd_mincrease=3&pcost=0.13&calcweeks=25&dleadtime=0&action=calc#

Please understand that an exercise in awareness rarely is doing disservice to others.

I understand what you're saying, and I do think that Genesis block and the other companies have given people more tools on this than have ever been provided before.  I just don't want people to think the future is that bleak...It is pretty bleak, don't get me wrong...just not THAT bleak.

I could not agree more

Speaking of investments

Oct. 9, 2013, 3:05 p.m. - **Debit cards have arrived as a new withdrawal option! (In Beta)
https://www.cavirtex.com/news

Oh and they have an IPO...
https://www.havelockinvestments.com/fund.php?symbol=VTX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvELpQ83ApA&feature=youtu.be

Edit: I think that this is a far more likely scenario as to network difficulty and bitcoin value projection.
BTCInvest link

So by July ASICs will ship in such vast quantities that difficulty will rise nearly 4 Billion every 12 days?

[Phoenix1969]

[soy]

Received my Saturn today.  Crappy packaging, fans were fallen off inside, UPS guy was concerned that contents were damaged when he delivered it...
not too hard to put them back on... but damn KnC, you could have talked to some of us who run group buys and have shipped out a ton of packages, we/I could have been a good resource to help you with your packaging and shipping.  At least you would have known what NOT to do...
but anyways, I'm happy that I got it, even though, it's not going to get the btc I paid for it back...
pointed at Eligius pool, working like a champ so far...

Maybe they're sending a signal.  They're engineers and therefore not the "complete package", so don't expect hand holding and time consuming efforts at keeping our spirits up as might be expected of salesmen.

[frankenmint]

whats that?

[Phoenix1969]

whats that?

the shipped saturn is the one hashing... You don't have a knc order?... thats a snippet of my KNC account order page...the other two orders there are also saturns...  in progress for a week now

[Sitarow]

The purpose of these exponential growth projections is to help those inexperienced with bitcoin network difficulty realize that what they should be focusing on is BTC return over the lifetime of the product.

Considering the risks associated with any pre-order it is time that manufacturers also consider the customers situation when pricing the $ value of the unit.

Avalon did it well on their first and second batches pricing wise vs number of units to be sold. Wish they would have been able to deliver them in volume.

Here is a link to something that I feel is my optimistic view as respects network difficulty.

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=249506922&dcosts=31200&diff_mincrease=35&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=2200000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=140&dpowcon=2400&btcusd_mincrease=3&pcost=0.13&calcweeks=25&dleadtime=0&action=calc#

Please understand that an exercise in awareness rarely is doing disservice to others.

I understand what you're saying, and I do think that Genesis block and the other companies have given people more tools on this than have ever been provided before.  I just don't want people to think the future is that bleak...It is pretty bleak, don't get me wrong...just not THAT bleak.

I could not agree more

Speaking of investments

Oct. 9, 2013, 3:05 p.m. - **Debit cards have arrived as a new withdrawal option! (In Beta)
https://www.cavirtex.com/news

Oh and they have an IPO...
https://www.havelockinvestments.com/fund.php?symbol=VTX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvELpQ83ApA&feature=youtu.be

Edit: I think that this is a far more likely scenario as to network difficulty and bitcoin value projection.
BTCInvest link

So by July 2014 ASICs will ship in such vast quantities that difficulty will rise nearly 4 Billion every 12 days?

One thing you can bet on the cost of the hardware will be a fraction of what it is today.

But only a fool would not sit down and revisit their calculations in order to prepare to any anticipated changes that may come down the pipe.

Carbon may become a viable option over silicon before the end of 2015.

2012 http://www.kurzweilai.net/carbon-nanotubes-to-replace-silicon-ibm

Killing silicon: Inside IBM’s carbon nanotube computer chip lab
2013 http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/147596-killing-silicon-inside-ibms-carbon-nanotube-computer-chip-lab

Researchers Build a Working Carbon Nanotube Computer
2013 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/26/science/researchers-build-a-working-carbon-nanotube-computer.html?_r=0

Then again who knows.

Edit: one also should realize that the calculator linked in this post does not calculate negative values for the bitcoin network difficulty.

A factor that the network difficulty does drop once those interested in mining realize the futility of investing into hardware for a profit the network speed increase drops until the next generation of technology becomes available.