Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[RickJamesBTC]

As a miner you aren't doing business in every state. I've been part of this process for a company that was. It really isn't bad. Exchanges are having a hard time because a lot of them were lazy scammers, and this whole attitude of bitcoin has people thinking the laws didn't apply

[Cablez]

"The ruling goes on to discuss that other arrangements, such as mining contracts where mining is done on behalf of another party, may be classified as a Money Services Business depending on the circumstances.  The entire ruling is below and will be published at FinCEN’s web site in the near future."

Well it seems you jumped the 'doom' gun a bit.  FinCEN hasn't really set guidance on the status of hosting yet.  Still about as clear as mud.

[faetos]

How about this - what about mining pools? Are those exempt as well? KnC hosts as well as runs its own mining pool. Will they have to start saying no to any US citizens if it applies? I already get that with just about everything else. "We'll do business with you unless you're a US citizen." Pain in the butt.

[Phoenix1969]

"The ruling goes on to discuss that other arrangements, such as mining contracts where mining is done on behalf of another party, may be classified as a Money Services Business depending on the circumstances.  The entire ruling is below and will be published at FinCEN’s web site in the near future."

Well it seems you jumped the 'doom' gun a bit.  FinCEN hasn't really set guidance on the status of hosting yet.  Still about as clear as mud.

Pretty clear, it was stated more than once that they need to register... that IS the guidance.
It's simple... Miner Hosting facilities need to register.
I'm not going to argue this anymore...it's pointless... If you don't understand the announcement, I don't know what else to say... I'm done.

[RickJamesBTC]

A mining pool will probably have to run the full gamut of regulations. They will be providing services and creating the actual coin, sending it to miners in many states and all over the world. Of course the rules will need to be changed a lot as they are based on USD. It's not about understanding the announcement Phoenix, it is about understanding how little it means. It's good news either way, with general acceptance and a process to operate under color of law, this gets more legitimate.

[Phoenix1969]

A mining pool will probably have to run the full gamut of regulations. They will be providing services and creating the actual coin, sending it to miners in many states and all over the world. Of course the rules will need to be changed a lot as they are based on USD. It's not about understanding the announcement Phoenix, it is about understanding how little it means. It's good news either way, with general acceptance and a process to operate under color of law, this gets more legitimate.

agreed... is many ways it's excellent news....for miners, and legitimizes BTC all the more....  

I just wanted to make clear to O'rama & KNC that they need to examine this a little closer before they celebrate too soon!
 It's VERY important, since they host miners!

[Epoch]

Who's bought from Knc Miner in the past and lives in Canada and or the US?

What did Knc Miner mark the value of the miner as?
Did you have to pay any duty and brokerage fees?

I am just wondering if they are going to mark the value down or if I am going to be stuck paying $1560 plus a brokerage fee when my Neptune finally shows up!?

Yes, that is what you can expect to pay if you are in Canada; PST and GST (or HST depending on province) plus brokerage. For a $5000 Jupiter the fees are approximately as follows:

declared value: $5343 (CDN)
GST + PST/HST: $695
Brokerage: $20

So the import fees add ~15% to the original cost. The same 15% would apply to the Neptune (whether it was $10k or $13k). KnC does *not* mark the value down; doing so would be illegal.

[Phoenix1969]

FYI small tid-bit on Jupiters...  Per Lucy @ KNC.....   "right now i don't know when we will have it."
So not an "if", but a "when".  

[soy]

A mining pool will probably have to run the full gamut of regulations. They will be providing services and creating the actual coin, sending it to miners in many states and all over the world. Of course the rules will need to be changed a lot as they are based on USD. It's not about understanding the announcement Phoenix, it is about understanding how little it means. It's good news either way, with general acceptance and a process to operate under color of law, this gets more legitimate.

agreed... is many ways it's excellent news....for miners, and legitimizes BTC all the more....  

I just wanted to make clear to O'rama & KNC that they need to examine this a little closer before they celebrate too soon!
 It's VERY important, since they host miners!

KnC does not host miners in the US so why the angst?

If all that hole-flow occurs in another country then it doesn't concern Fincen.  If BP electronically sends it's payroll to an oil platform in the Gulf of Mexico from an account in the British Empire what concern is it of the US Fincen?

Like Norway ruled Bitcoin is an asset not a currency.  That might only effect US legal considerations as a guideline not a rule.  FINCEN determinations about hosting in this country again might be considered a guideline but other countries have no problem with things like >$10,000 international transfers per day per individual because if they did it would have made it very difficult to quickly buy a $13k miner.

[Phoenix1969]

Because it's in U.S. Dollars, and includes transmitting to wallets in the USA
We shall see what all pans out... I doubt there is a big "rush. to get it done.

[soy]

Because it's in U.S. Dollars, and includes transmitting to wallets in the USA

I see, like some hosting services will pay out in dollars not btc.

[Phoenix1969]

Because it's in U.S. Dollars, and includes transmitting to wallets in the USA

I see, like some hosting services will pay out in dollars not btc.

or transmitting to a wallet in USA...  whatever...
I'm not the gov't here... lol...  The point speaks for itself... and I totally agree with you, and am on your side...
but the rules are the rules.... and they just let them be known...  it is what it is.

[soy]

FINCEN was created not to hamstring Bitcoin miners but to impeded illegal drug imports that addict and kill Americans.  That the banks have another agenda and can exert influence to use FINCEN regulations to make Bitcoin use difficult is another story.  Just my opinion.

[noodle73]

There's another way of reading that FINCEN stuff which is essentially "if you own the machine and mine from it for yourself, you don't need to register". So it doesn't matter if it is co-located in a hosting farm or in your home, it's your miner with the income going to you. Mining contracts are a distribution from the company that owns the miner (i.e. not you) to a customer who has paid to receive a share of the earnings over a period of time. In that case you don't own the miner so the bitcoins are being transmitted to you. KnC always went to lengths to say that if hosted  it was your specific miner and would be shipped to you at the end of the contract, so I don't see how they would be caught by FINCEN as well as the fact that they're outside US jurisdiction.

[RickJamesBTC]

There's another way of reading that FINCEN stuff which is essentially "if you own the machine and mine from it for yourself, you don't need to register". So it doesn't matter if it is co-located in a hosting farm or in your home, it's your miner with the income going to you. Mining contracts are a distribution from the company that owns the miner (i.e. not you) to a customer who has paid to receive a share of the earnings over a period of time. In that case you don't own the miner so the bitcoins are being transmitted to you. KnC always went to lengths to say that if hosted  it was your specific miner and would be shipped to you at the end of the contract, so I don't see how they would be caught by FINCEN as well as the fact that they're outside US jurisdiction.

Thankfully, with most regulations here, things take so long to sort out that you can just wait and see. Only major players need to worry at first, as they are the ones that will be approached for compliance first, and have the lawyers ready for it.

[soy]

I agree.  Selling timeshares on Ebay is out tho.  

I was thinking of the German Ebay offering of 12 hours output from a Jupiter for some hundreds of Euros but now I'm thinking about the group buys with hosting one sees here on asktom.cf in Bitcoin Forum > Bitcoin > Mining > Hardware > Group buys.

So, if twenty guys go in on a Neptune purchase they own 1/20th of the miner, one of the owners does the operation and pays out to the other owners.  When it gets down to the billing of power, rental on the space to run the miner, and some hourly wage for checking in on it, I'd guess it would be tougher to argue that it's privately owned.

[RickJamesBTC]

I agree.  Selling timeshares on Ebay is out tho.  

I was thinking of the German Ebay offering of 12 hours output from a Jupiter for some hundreds of Euros but now I'm thinking about the group buys with hosting one sees here on asktom.cf in Bitcoin Forum > Bitcoin > Mining > Hardware > Group buys.

So, if twenty guys go in on a Neptune purchase they own 1/20th of the miner, one of the owners does the operation and pays out to the other owners.  When it gets down to the billing of power, rental on the space to run the miner, and some hourly wage for checking in on it, I'd guess it would be tougher to argue that it's privately owned.

This discussion needs its own thread. Has nothing to do with knc. Nothing is certain yet, so there is no point in clouding up the knc discussion further. Yes I know I'm the one who mentioned it first, I was just happy to see it.
lol

[Grix]

When I bought my saturn I picked it up in stockholm. They don't allow this apparently for the neptune. Can't say I'm looking forward to pay $3000 in import fees on top of the $10k price..

[noodle73]

I agree.  Selling timeshares on Ebay is out tho.  

I was thinking of the German Ebay offering of 12 hours output from a Jupiter for some hundreds of Euros but now I'm thinking about the group buys with hosting one sees here on asktom.cf in Bitcoin Forum > Bitcoin > Mining > Hardware > Group buys.

So, if twenty guys go in on a Neptune purchase they own 1/20th of the miner, one of the owners does the operation and pays out to the other owners.  When it gets down to the billing of power, rental on the space to run the miner, and some hourly wage for checking in on it, I'd guess it would be tougher to argue that it's privately owned.

This discussion needs its own thread. Has nothing to do with knc. Nothing is certain yet, so there is no point in clouding up the knc discussion further. Yes I know I'm the one who mentioned it first, I was just happy to see it.
lol

Oh yea - it's your fault!
Well, we've got to pass the time until the next big piece of KnC news talking about something...

[soy]

I agree.  Selling timeshares on Ebay is out tho.  

I was thinking of the German Ebay offering of 12 hours output from a Jupiter for some hundreds of Euros but now I'm thinking about the group buys with hosting one sees here on asktom.cf in Bitcoin Forum > Bitcoin > Mining > Hardware > Group buys.

So, if twenty guys go in on a Neptune purchase they own 1/20th of the miner, one of the owners does the operation and pays out to the other owners.  When it gets down to the billing of power, rental on the space to run the miner, and some hourly wage for checking in on it, I'd guess it would be tougher to argue that it's privately owned.

lol

Oh yea - it's your fault!
Well, we've got to pass the time until the next big piece of KnC news talking about something...

Yes.  If January Jupiters, wonder if the 3rd or sometime between the 7th and 10th.  The 3rd is 5 days away and these last few have been slow post days here.