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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 9 (8.3%)
$120K - 19 (17.6%)
$130K - 17 (15.7%)
$140K - 9 (8.3%)
$150K - 19 (17.6%)
$160K - 2 (1.9%)
$170K+ - 33 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 108

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26914911 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
JayJuanGee
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April 26, 2014, 10:23:13 PM

$50k or 100 BTC isnt that meaningful when you have 20,000 BTC my friend. Its like 0.5% of your stash, I bet you would take a bet you thought you would win for .25BTC on a 50BTC stash.


My point is still valid, and I could give a shit whether a guy has $10 million in liquid assets or $10,000 in liquid assets.

The point of the bet seems to be to put some money where your mouth is, and you do NOT need to prove yourself with a $50K bet, especially when it seems that the $50k aspect of the bet may be getting in the way of making the bet.  $5k remains a meaningful amount b/c it is meaningful to others, and some people could live for a year off of $5k.

Let's take the guy with $10,000 in liquid assets, he could still prove his point by betting $5 (0.05%) rather than by betting $50 (0.5%).  And, don't tell me that the guys with $10 million are treating $50K the same as a guy with $10k is treating $50.  That may be the same percentage (0.5%), but even well to do people are going to begin to put up some barriers when they are throwing around $50k here and there for quasi-random bets on an internet forum.

Part of my point is that the proposed $50k amount of the bet may be getting in the way of finalizing the terms of the bet, and that $50k amount really is NOT necessary, unless the guys are merely wanting to impress people with pompous big balls numbers, that distract from the main point.... which is to put "some" money where you mouth is... with clear terms that everyone can understand.
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April 26, 2014, 10:45:43 PM


It is rising! I can see it with my magnifying glass!!

In next hour I predict +$4

\
fail  Grin Grin
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April 26, 2014, 10:51:54 PM


It is rising! I can see it with my magnifying glass!!

In next hour I predict +$4

\
fail  Grin Grin

And... You're off by 12USD
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April 26, 2014, 11:00:56 PM


Explanation
Dabs
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April 26, 2014, 11:02:54 PM

I'll go make a contract tomorrow while you guys figure out your terms and agree on something. Or not. This looks like an honor bet.
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April 26, 2014, 11:27:20 PM


 And, don't tell me that the guys with $10 million are treating $50K the same as a guy with $10k is treating $50. 

Of course he doesn't. If he did, he would never had made $10M in the first place.
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April 27, 2014, 12:00:56 AM


Explanation
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April 27, 2014, 12:02:49 AM
Last edit: April 27, 2014, 12:14:38 AM by Post-Cosmic

Could be foreigners removing bitcoin from exchanges because they do not have chinese bank accounts. Once this process is complete, buying pressure will rapidly decline and double single digit coins become a real possibility.

 What a joker, rofl. Single-digits haven't been anywhere remotely close to being a 'real possibility' since the day Obama was re-elected for a 2nd term in office.

 That being said, I'm looking forward to some major crashes between now & the new May 2nd & May 10th 'deadlines' from PBoC, 1 australian bank, 5 major chinese banks, and countless exchanges, newspapers/magazine shills & payment processors, that certainly, realistically may not even be able to pierce through $300 support or even through our good ol' $340 of last time, but that nonetheless -definitely- have to bring price below the current levels at least touching $400 in a cheerleader-skirt-flash.

 -THOSE- prices will be some great floors to buy at.. Certainly better than $445-500 (not that the latter are terrible, just not optimal given how badly chinese officials have revealed they have it & still have it against -all- crypto-related deposit/withdrawal loopholes whatever they may be, all accounts must be shut down, and quickly too.

 You can't get any clearer bearishness than that, even though admittedly, yes, that bearishness only goes so far, for there is indeed mad bull money hidden down there especially past $400 and even more in the late $200's/early $300's, yet that doesn't mean that smart money's gonna be desperate enough to buy in the mid $400's w/ that kind of chinese repressive climate.
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April 27, 2014, 12:20:29 AM

Could be foreigners removing bitcoin from exchanges because they do not have chinese bank accounts. Once this process is complete, buying pressure will rapidly decline and double single digit coins become a real possibility.

 What a joker, rofl. Single-digits haven't been anywhere remotely close to being a 'real possibility' since the day Obama was re-elected for a 2nd term in office.

 That being said, I'm looking forward to some major crashes between now & the new May 2nd & May 10th 'deadlines' from PBoC, 1 australian bank, 5 major chinese banks, and countless exchanges, newspapers/magazine shills & payment processors, that certainly, realistically may not even be able to pierce through $300 support or even through our good ol' $340 of last time, but that nonetheless -definitely- have to bring price below the current levels at least touching $400 in a cheerleader-skirt-flash.

 -THOSE- prices will be some great floors to buy at.. Certainly better than $445-500 (not that the latter are terrible, just not optimal given how badly chinese officials have revealed they have it & still have it against -all- crypto-related deposit/withdrawal loopholes whatever they may be, all accounts must be shut down, and quickly too.

 You can't get any clearer bearishness than that, even though admittedly, yes, that bearishness only goes so far, for there is indeed mad bull money hidden down there especially past $400 and even more in the late $200's/early $300's, yet that doesn't mean that smart money's gonna be desperate enough to buy in the mid $400's w/ that kind of chinese repressive climate.

Lol, don't mind Walsoraj. In the few short months he's been here, he's morphed into the person that he was originally a parody of.
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April 27, 2014, 01:01:01 AM


Explanation
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April 27, 2014, 01:03:52 AM

To all the bears out there:



I am buying, for the last time. After I am done buying, my "accumulation phase" has ended and I will try to get my SSS plan ready Smiley


edit:
this is a report of my previous image in which i projected the aftermath of the previous bubble to the current "post bubble phase"
(so the "we are here" is on the lowest point when we hit 340 USD. It is outdated)
Just to give you an image of how fast we can see the exchange rate go back to 600 USD, after that 900 USD and beyond Cheesy


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April 27, 2014, 01:27:19 AM

To all the bears out there:



I am buying, for the last time. After I am done buying, my "accumulation phase" has ended and I will try to get my SSS plan ready Smiley


edit:
this is a report of my previous image in which i projected the aftermath of the previous bubble to the current "post bubble phase"
(so the "we are here" is on the lowest point when we hit 340 USD. It is outdated)
Just to give you an image of how fast we can see the exchange rate go back to 600 USD, after that 900 USD and beyond Cheesy



Really? So this whole entire China thing is over and behind us. No more bad news?

And fresh fiat is going to arrive on the exchanges this week for the first time in several months?

And you know all of this because you have a chart from 2013?

Ok. Sign me up.  Roll Eyes
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April 27, 2014, 01:32:36 AM

To all the bears out there:



I am buying, for the last time. After I am done buying, my "accumulation phase" has ended and I will try to get my SSS plan ready Smiley


edit:
this is a report of my previous image in which i projected the aftermath of the previous bubble to the current "post bubble phase"
(so the "we are here" is on the lowest point when we hit 340 USD. It is outdated)
Just to give you an image of how fast we can see the exchange rate go back to 600 USD, after that 900 USD and beyond Cheesy



Really? So this whole entire China thing is over and behind us. No more bad news?

And fresh fiat is going to arrive on the exchanges this week for the first time in several months?

And you know all of this because you have a chart from 2013?

Ok. Sign me up.  Roll Eyes

no more bad news?

no theres always some bad news, but bitcoin either  deals with it quick or ignores it,because honey badger

fresh fiat?

duh!

you know all of this because?

because honey badger

and because bitcoin

we don't like to do to much explaining

  buy bitcoin   just sayin
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April 27, 2014, 01:36:30 AM

I love bitcoin sooooo much
 Grin

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April 27, 2014, 01:39:16 AM

459.9
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April 27, 2014, 01:39:56 AM

459.9


Don't look so sour!
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April 27, 2014, 01:41:20 AM

I love bitcoin sooooo much
 Grin



Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I imagined the next bull run tonight:



This will be LEGEN... DARY !!!
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April 27, 2014, 01:41:52 AM


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April 27, 2014, 01:42:29 AM
Last edit: April 27, 2014, 01:55:51 AM by JorgeStolfi

To come back to yours, I think the error is in the first sentence: "the difference between successive values of Z(i) = log(P(i)) are independent random variables with probability distributions that are symmetric about zero"
Small proof: under log brownian (with no drift) the important basic concept is that the best expectation of price in the future is the current value of the price.
OK, it seems that I was using a definition of "log Brownian" that is not the standard one used in finance.

Indeed I was assuming that the increments D(i) = Z(i+1)-Z(i)  = log(P(i+1)/P(i)) were normal variables with zero mean, so that Z(i) would be a Brownian variable as it is usually defined in other areas - with no trend.  (Note that I am a prof of computer science, not economics!)

However, as you point out, by that definition the expected price E(P(i0+n)) would grow exponentially with n; which does not make sense in the trading context, where the "efficient market hypothesis" demands E(P(i0+n)) = P(i0).  (Or does it? See below.)

We agree at least that in a log-Brownian model the increments D(i) = Z(i+1)-Z(i)  = log(P(i+1)/P(i)) should be assumed to be independent random variables, yes?

The standard way to achieve E(P(i0+n)) = P(i0), in finance, seems to be: assume that the increments D(i) are Gaussian variables with slightly negative mean, mu = -sigma^2/2.  That is, one assumes a slight negative trend in the log-price Z(i) so that the broadening of the log-normal distribution of P(i0+n) as n increases preserves the mean P(i0).   Is that correct?

That assumption satisfies the "efficient market hypothesis", but implies (as you pointed out) that the price is slightly more likely to go down than to go up at each step.  Then Prob(P(i0+n) < P(i0)) increases with with the stride n.  Which seems weird too.

We can get rid of this weidness by assuming a probability distribution for D(i) such that E(D(i)) = 0, E(exp(D(i))) = 1.  It seems that these two conditions cannot be obtained with a Gaussian distribution, except in the limit when sigma → 0.  However, they can be achieved with other distributions that are symmetric about zero, especially if they have fatter tails than the Gaussian.  And, indeed, the most obvious deficiency of the log-Brownian model seems to be that, in real data, the distribution of the increments is not Gaussian.

If my math is correct, the distribution of the n-step increments too would satisfy both conditions: E(Z(i0+n)) = Z(i0), and E(P(i0+n)) = P(i0).  Moreover the distribution of Z(i0+n), being the convolution of n symmetric distributions, would be symmetric about Z(i0), implying that Prob(Z(i0+n) < Z(i0)) = 1/2, and hence Prob(P(i0+n) < P(i0)) = 1/2.

With these assumptions, even though the distribution of P(i0+n)/P(i0) approaches a log-normal distribution as n increases (by the central limit theorem), it remains sufficiently "log-abnormal" to satisfy those conditions (which a true log-normal distribution cannot achieve, it seems).

Perhaps you can tell me what would be a convenient "fat-tailed" symmetric distribution to assume for the increments D(i) that would satisfy both conditions.  (Perhaps a mixture of Gaussians with zero mean whose variance has log-normal distribution?  I would have a justification for that choice...)

Finally, about the "efficient market hypothesis": shouldn't it say that E(P(i0 + n)) = P(i0)*Q^n, where Q > 1 is the typical ROI factor of a generic investment per time step?  That is, if E(P(i0+n)) = X, then P(i0) should be less than X, otherwise other investments would be more profitable.

With that modification to the "efficient market hypothesis", the distribution of D(i) must satisfy E(exp(D(i)) = Q, not 1; and one can achieve that even with a zero-mean Gaussian if desired.  In that case one would have a legitimate log-Browninan model (with Gaussian increments) such that that E(Z(i0+n)) = Z(i0), E(P(i0+n)) = P(i0)*Q^n, and Prob(P(i0+n) < P(i0)) = 1/2.  Does this make sense?

EDIT: not sure whether the distribution must/may have fatter tails than a Gaussian.  Too sleepy to think now...
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April 27, 2014, 01:44:36 AM

Agreed with dnaleor & Adam, but not until the long-running ChinaFUD soap opera concludes.
This may be during May, but only when the global price has adjusted to reflect that CNY transfers to/from the China exchanges are severely and permanently crippled.
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