Incoming Avalon News 8/9/2013

[Bicknellski]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

[wrenchmonkey]

But yes poor customer service and management is the problem here and likely they could careless at this point given the remarks Yifu made. Alternatively the DIY or chip only fabricators will also push the marketplace. Given Avalons failure I can't see many people wanting to risk it.

Yes a good point. Many "DIY" resellers got burned by relying on avalon and will want to switch to a more creditable supplier in the future.

Developers will go where the chips are. Whoever is able to get chips into the hands of customers/assemblers is who developers will develop for. The chips are the crux of the matter. Get chips in the hands of people, and the rest will take care of itself. 

[Flying Hellfish]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

To me this is the crux of the issue.  I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer.  I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete!

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

[Stack]

 I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

Anything on Kickstarter

[k9quaint]

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

Drugs. The price of equity in drug dealers tends towards the volatile. 

[Bicknellski]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

To me this is the crux of the issue.  I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer.  I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete!

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

I agree with that assessment at the time there were no avenues for other than pre-orders... let us hope that changes but given the size of an investment now for something off the shelf I doubt people have tens of thousands kicking around just to get in the game. The rich in this will get richer regardless of the available hardware be it pre order or off the shelf. That is where I am thinking the game has really changed. There will be fewer avenues for the individual.

[erk]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

To me this is the crux of the issue.  I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer.  I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete!

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

I agree with that assessment at the time there were no avenues for other than pre-orders... let us hope that changes but given the size of an investment now for something off the shelf I doubt people have tens of thousands kicking around just to get in the game. The rich in this will get richer regardless of the available hardware be it pre order or off the shelf. That is where I am thinking the game has really changed. There will be fewer avenues for the individual.

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

[bigbeninlondon]

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

Yea BFL is shit.  But PS4 and most game titles don't use pre-orders to fund their development.  In fact, I was under the impression that the pre-orders are generally run by the retailers, and not the manufacturer/developer at all.

[erk]

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

Yea BFL is shit.  But PS4 and most game titles don't use pre-orders to fund their development.  In fact, I was under the impression that the pre-orders are generally run by the retailers, and not the manufacturer/developer at all.

I often pre-order games from developers online. In BFL's case they are the retailer.

[itod]

And just over 24 hours ago here come Bitfury!!!  Solo Mining on their own pool at 115TH/s which gives them 20%+ of this lovely Bitcoin Network. https://ghash.io/

We need to be very afraid of these ASIC Companies Mining who are already Centralizing the Bitcoin network day-by-day.  They will mine while the difficulty is low to milk what they can, then will ship out preordered chips and miners when any kind of decent ROI time for US, who mostly paid for everything they have, has past.  Then we get to worry if we'll ever even earn back what we've paid for these ASICs.  Lovely isn't it?  This is what will happen to the majority of ASIC Miner and Chip purchasers who did have "Contacts" or were able to "Buy" their place in line.

At this point in time, w/o doing any extensive research, ASICMiner and Bitfury combined are about 40% of the Entire network right now!!   

It's amazing that you blame the only companies that are actually delivering something to the miners. Bitfury just shipped on time leaving hundreds of customers used to delays and scam everywhere surprised and thankful, see:
https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=250249.msg3043629#msg3043629

And those are the bad guys?!?

[Bicknellski]

And just over 24 hours ago here come Bitfury!!!  Solo Mining on their own pool at 115TH/s which gives them 20%+ of this lovely Bitcoin Network. https://ghash.io/

We need to be very afraid of these ASIC Companies Mining who are already Centralizing the Bitcoin network day-by-day.  They will mine while the difficulty is low to milk what they can, then will ship out preordered chips and miners when any kind of decent ROI time for US, who mostly paid for everything they have, has past.  Then we get to worry if we'll ever even earn back what we've paid for these ASICs.  Lovely isn't it?  This is what will happen to the majority of ASIC Miner and Chip purchasers who did have "Contacts" or were able to "Buy" their place in line.

At this point in time, w/o doing any extensive research, ASICMiner and Bitfury combined are about 40% of the Entire network right now!!   

It's amazing that you blame the only companies that are actually delivering something to the miners. Bitfury just shipped on time leaving hundreds of customers used to delays and scam everywhere surprised and thankful, see:
https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=250249.msg3043629#msg3043629

And those are the bad guys?!?

Not everyone can be honest and on time.

[Milan77]

It is pretty clear that the delay is planned and intentionally.

Back in May, ccmbc, a Chinese clone manufactur, told me that the Avalon chips would be shipped in Sep. He said he had contacts inside the Avalon team. Avalon team think if they ship in Sep, the early chip buyer will not lose money. I was surprised, and asked him to deliver message to ngzhang, shipping the order on time!  the feed back is weird. they did not promise time, but "we will make the early buyer ROI"

Later, we found that ccmbc has lots of chips, it is very likely that it is from the private market created by the Avalon team. This is an evidence that ccmbc was telling the truth.

Avalon team is corrupted, untrustworth, scammy, selfish, and criminal.

This is what I am talking about.

[bigbeninlondon]

I often pre-order games from developers online. In BFL's case they are the retailer.

My point was that in the mature video game market, the one producing the product doesn't sell it to the retailer until they can ship it.  The retailer is the one who collects and holds your money.  

[erk]

It is pretty clear that the delay is planned and intentionally.

Back in May, ccmbc, a Chinese clone manufactur, told me that the Avalon chips would be shipped in Sep. He said he had contacts inside the Avalon team. Avalon team think if they ship in Sep, the early chip buyer will not lose money. I was surprised, and asked him to deliver message to ngzhang, shipping the order on time!  the feed back is weird. they did not promise time, but "we will make the early buyer ROI"

Later, we found that ccmbc has lots of chips, it is very likely that it is from the private market created by the Avalon team. This is an evidence that ccmbc was telling the truth.

Avalon team is corrupted, untrustworth, scammy, selfish, and criminal.

This is what I am talking about.

He forgot to mention that Avalon mine in competition with their clients too.

[Flying Hellfish]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

To me this is the crux of the issue.  I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer.  I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete!

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

I agree with that assessment at the time there were no avenues for other than pre-orders... let us hope that changes but given the size of an investment now for something off the shelf I doubt people have tens of thousands kicking around just to get in the game. The rich in this will get richer regardless of the available hardware be it pre order or off the shelf. That is where I am thinking the game has really changed. There will be fewer avenues for the individual.

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

Actually BFL was a start up when they started selling FULL PAYMENT PRO-ORDERS for their FPGA line up which was late and they missed the power consumption.  BFL used customer pre-order money to start up the FPGA line and the ASIC line.  Secondly when you purchase some pre-order PS4 or game, Sony, EA, Blizzard DO NOT use the pre-order monies to develop the product.  Additionaly because a lot of those pre-orders are done with CC through a retailer, the retailer doesn't even get the money from the CC company UNTIL the product ships (the CC company puts a "hold" on the funds on the card so you can't spend it again) but the company doesn't receive a nickel until the product ships.  Not to mention that both PS4 and game pre-orders do not lock your money into them form months, if you want a refund you will have it quickly (mostly because it would be against the law not to lol).

You can certainly justify this model to yourself and lots of others can justify it as well, however using full payment pre-order money to develop a product is not common in the real world and I assure if any of these companies end up in a court of law they will find out very quickly the law does not allow a company to shed most of their risk onto a CONSUMER.

[erk]

Actually BFL was a start up when they started selling FULL PAYMENT PRO-ORDERS for their FPGA line up which was late and they missed the power consumption.  BFL used customer pre-order money to start up the FPGA line and the ASIC line.  Secondly when you purchase some pre-order PS4 or game, Sony, EA, Blizzard DO NOT use the pre-order monies to develop the product.  Secondly because a lot of those pre-orders are done with CC through a retailer, the retailer doesn't even get the money from the CC company UNTIL the product ships (the CC company puts a "hold" on the funds on the card so you can't spend it again) but the company doesn't receive a nickel until the product ships.  Not to mention that both PS4 and game pre-orders do not lock your money into them form months, if you want a refund you will have it quickly (mostly because it would be against the law not to lol).

You can certainly justify this model to yourself and lots of others can justify it as well, however using full payment pre-order money to develop a product is not common in the real world and I assure if any of these companies end up in a court of law they will find out very quickly the law does not allow a company to shed most of their risk onto a CONSUMER.

I thought this discussion was about ASICs not how companies got started?

[Flying Hellfish]

Actually BFL was a start up when they started selling FULL PAYMENT PRO-ORDERS for their FPGA line up which was late and they missed the power consumption.  BFL used customer pre-order money to start up the FPGA line and the ASIC line.  Secondly when you purchase some pre-order PS4 or game, Sony, EA, Blizzard DO NOT use the pre-order monies to develop the product.  Secondly because a lot of those pre-orders are done with CC through a retailer, the retailer doesn't even get the money from the CC company UNTIL the product ships (the CC company puts a "hold" on the funds on the card so you can't spend it again) but the company doesn't receive a nickel until the product ships.  Not to mention that both PS4 and game pre-orders do not lock your money into them form months, if you want a refund you will have it quickly (mostly because it would be against the law not to lol).

You can certainly justify this model to yourself and lots of others can justify it as well, however using full payment pre-order money to develop a product is not common in the real world and I assure if any of these companies end up in a court of law they will find out very quickly the law does not allow a company to shed most of their risk onto a CONSUMER.

I thought this discussion was about ASICs not how companies got started?

I was responding to statements you made directly.  You stated my assessment was flawed for your two reasons, I responded to those two points, that's how a discussion works, isn't it?  Now you insinuate I am going OT on those points? (I agree this tangent is OT from the OP)

[Flying Hellfish]

I would say that all this talk about PS4 game pre-orders etc. is what Yifu considers noise.

I don't really care what the Prima Donna considers noise.  A civil discussion is taking place, sure it's OT to this thread but this thread is way past being anywhere near on topic or relevant to the OP anyways.  If he, you or anyone else can't handle a civil conversation, feel free to ignore it, its not that difficult.

[bigbeninlondon]

I would say that all this talk about PS4 game pre-orders etc. is what Yifu considers noise.

I don't really care what the Prima Donna considers noise.  A civil discussion is taking place, sure it's OT to this thread but this thread is way past being anywhere near on topic or relevant to the OP anyways.  If he, you or anyone else can't handle a civil conversation, feel free to ignore it, its not that difficult.

I prefer to stay on topic and create a new topic to discuss game pre-orders.

Otherwise we might just create 1 BIG topic for everything!

This is a discussion on the fact that Yifu's model is not normal.  Pre-orders aren't generally used to fund development.  How is this OT?  It's a comparison of Yifu's business model, and Yifu's business is the topic of this thread.

[markm]

But is it actually "news" ?

-MarkM-