NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[swartzfeger]

Hmmm...i like the drama of gold on black, but I can see your point. Maybe slightly too Evil....
I'll have a fiddle with colours if i get some time later on.
Any feedback on text or layout ?

Form vs. function -- could you read that URL from the back of someone's car?

I could've 20 years ago. Probably not in 2014 (and definitely not at night).

[landomata]

How's progress with the decentralised exchange backend and frontend GUI going?

I've just checked out counterparty, but to be honest, it's too damn slow, also there are just too many issues with piggybacking on the bitcoin block chain.  I think NXT has the right model.

Do you know why it's slow?  

Two very fundamental reasons

1. each operation on the exchange (e.g. putting in a buy or sell order) has a 10 minute delay (because it requires 1 Bitcoin block to be solved)
2. because all counterparty transactions are simply nested inside the bitcoin blockchain, they are not automatically validated like native bitcoin transactions.  This means that in order to validate a transaction the counterparty clients must rewind back from the counterparty genesis/PoB transactions and revalidate to the present point, which is way more inefficient than in bitcoin, where the Merkel tree is able to speed things up.

Are there any plans by Counterparty to change the above setups?

[landomata]

will trustless high frequency trading be possible when1000 transactions per seconds are possible

No. There is a 60 second gap between blocks. U can't call it "high frequency trading".

but it's ten times faster than counterparty & you mentioned that we can reduce the block forging time gap.

[ChuckOne]

Why should we set a price per operations? Why not let the forger determine how many operations he is willing to perform for a given price?

What is an objective difference between those two options?  They look like two ways to state the same thing to me.

Is the trouble here in the fact that its would be un reasonable for the rest of the network to check the forgers work if the forger happened to be running on a really powerful computer?

One of the problems we run into is the Halting Problem -- there's just no way to know before-hand if a program will find an answer or chug away with calculations until the heat death of the universe.

We already sorted that out by: pay per op.

[BitThink]

How's progress with the decentralised exchange backend and frontend GUI going?

I've just checked out counterparty, but to be honest, it's too damn slow, also there are just too many issues with piggybacking on the bitcoin block chain.  I think NXT has the right model.

Do you know why it's slow?  

Two very fundamental reasons

1. each operation on the exchange (e.g. putting in a buy or sell order) has a 10 minute delay (because it requires 1 Bitcoin block to be solved)
2. because all counterparty transactions are simply nested inside the bitcoin blockchain, they are not automatically validated like native bitcoin transactions.  This means that in order to validate a transaction the counterparty clients must rewind back from the counterparty genesis/PoB transactions and revalidate to the present point, which is way more inefficient than in bitcoin, where the Merkel tree is able to speed things up.

To be fair:

1) The second point is valid, but you will not notice the difference as long as you have whole blockchain downloaded. When I pointed out this first in XCP thread, I mean the main drawback is the time to download the blockchain in the beginning. You will notice the slow parsing time only when a XCP is transferred tens of thousands of times, and that will not happen in near future.

2) The first point is of course true, but should be acceptable to most average users. Normally, we trade only once several days. Even day traders only trade couple of times per day.

[BitThink]

will trustless high frequency trading be possible when1000 transactions per seconds are possible

No. There is a 60 second gap between blocks. U can't call it "high frequency trading".

but it's ten times faster than counterparty & you mentioned that we can reduce the block forging time gap.

Included in a block does not mean it's really confirmed. You still need to wait enough blocks to be sure the probability of reorganization is low.

[ChuckOne]

Why should we set a price per operations? Why not let the forger determine how many operations he is willing to perform for a given price?

What is an objective difference between those two options?  They look like two ways to state the same thing to me.

Is the trouble here in the fact that its would be un reasonable for the rest of the network to check the forgers work if the forger happened to be running on a really powerful computer?

One of the problems we run into is the Halting Problem -- there's just no way to know before-hand if a program will find an answer or chug away with calculations until the heat death of the universe.

We already sorted that out by: pay per op.

Another issue of subleq, I can think of, is that it does not utilize hardware ressources efficiently.

Today's processors can calculate many different operations extremely efficiently and fast.

Our VM should utilize at least some of that potential.

[swartzfeger]

have you got all the donations you need for the reddit/facebook tip bot yet?

To start -- I was an ass to you upthread and could've directed you to a page explaining transparent forging but instead gave you a shitty, terse remark. Lack of caffeine is no excuse. Hope you can accept my mea culpa.

Yes. There wasn't a set amount for the reddit bounty, but there was a hope for 5000 NXT... it easily surpassed that and is over 25000 NXT.

The doge tipbot dev said the doge code isn't easily translatable (due to differences in JSON and python handling IIRC) but is willing to answer questions.

Facebook bounty -- there was never a set amount requested; 10000 is definitely a nice start!

its ok i dont hold grudges! ok just wondering because theres no point in me donating to projects  that need 10's / 100's of thousands because i simply dont have enough.. if i donate to these smaller projects i dont look like so much of a scab! :L

I bought my first back on December 21 and yesterday was the first time I donated to a bounty (and I really only did it because someone donated some NXT to me for some quick work I did for them).

Having little NXT makes it frustrating when you see your small account balance versus all the worthy bounties and projects that need funding. :/ I just try to have fun, learn a little and watch the big dogs play in the yard as I watch from the porch.

[FrictionlessCoin]

How's progress with the decentralised exchange backend and frontend GUI going?

I've just checked out counterparty, but to be honest, it's too damn slow, also there are just too many issues with piggybacking on the bitcoin block chain.  I think NXT has the right model.

Do you know why it's slow?  

Two very fundamental reasons

1. each operation on the exchange (e.g. putting in a buy or sell order) has a 10 minute delay (because it requires 1 Bitcoin block to be solved)
2. because all counterparty transactions are simply nested inside the bitcoin blockchain, they are not automatically validated like native bitcoin transactions.  This means that in order to validate a transaction the counterparty clients must rewind back from the counterparty genesis/PoB transactions and revalidate to the present point, which is way more inefficient than in bitcoin, where the Merkel tree is able to speed things up.

Are there any plans by Counterparty to change the above setups?

You probably want to take a look at NEX http://www.nexcoin.net .

It leverages the bitcoin secure network without the weight of Bitcoin's 10 minute confirmations.

[FrictionlessCoin]

How's progress with the decentralised exchange backend and frontend GUI going?

I've just checked out counterparty, but to be honest, it's too damn slow, also there are just too many issues with piggybacking on the bitcoin block chain.  I think NXT has the right model.

Do you know why it's slow?  

Two very fundamental reasons

1. each operation on the exchange (e.g. putting in a buy or sell order) has a 10 minute delay (because it requires 1 Bitcoin block to be solved)
2. because all counterparty transactions are simply nested inside the bitcoin blockchain, they are not automatically validated like native bitcoin transactions.  This means that in order to validate a transaction the counterparty clients must rewind back from the counterparty genesis/PoB transactions and revalidate to the present point, which is way more inefficient than in bitcoin, where the Merkel tree is able to speed things up.

To be fair:

1) The second point is valid, but you will not notice the difference as long as you have whole blockchain downloaded. When I pointed out this first in XCP thread, I mean the main drawback is the time to download the blockchain in the beginning. You will notice the slow parsing time only when a XCP is transferred tens of thousands of times, and that will not happen in near future.

2) The first point is of course true, but should be acceptable to most average users. Normally, we trade only once several days. Even day traders only trade couple of times per day.

For non commodities like say eBay listings,  then (2) should be acceptable.  However, when you do commodities or shares,  then the Bitcoin 10 minute per block limitation is really too restrictive. 

In general, you should do all the high speed stuff off the Bitcoin block chain and then resync back to the blockchain when done. 

See: http://www.nexcoin.net  on how it should really be done.

[Emule]

I only have 800,000 NXT to dump and we r below 0,00005.

When I get back I will do this so i was polite warning you all.


oh and on vicrurex 90,000 NXT and we r below 0.00005 but that is to easy.

bye bye

[gimre]

will trustless high frequency trading be possible when1000 transactions per seconds are possible

No. There is a 60 second gap between blocks. U can't call it "high frequency trading".

CfB, I got question regarding assets.

I assume, network itself will do bid-ask matching.

I'm issuing an asset, user B is placing bid order.
Can "transferAsset" be used to "accept" the bid, without making an ask order?

If so, does it mean it should always include referencedTransaction?

[bitcoinpaul]

I only have 800,000 NXT to dump and we r below 0,00005.

When I get back I will do this so i was polite warning you all.

bye bye

finally

[bananahunter67]

I only have 800,000 NXT to dump and we r below 0,00005.

When I get back I will do this so i was polite warning you all.

bye bye

GO ahead!!!

[landomata]

@ CfB

How much nxt would it cost to implement service provider feature before April 3rd?

[coolmist]

will trustless high frequency trading be possible when1000 transactions per seconds are possible

No. There is a 60 second gap between blocks. U can't call it "high frequency trading".

After TF is initialized there wouldn't really be a need to forge a block to complete a transaction, right? A privately signed IOU certificate could be passed along the network, verified by peers.

[BitcoinForumator]

whats the story with vertcoin?? 400 odd percent gain there the last day and 2xx odd percent today??? wtf?

What happens usually after a parabolic lift like that?

[Hacer88]

whats the story with vertcoin?? 400 odd percent gain there the last day and 2xx odd percent today??? wtf?

What happens usually after a parabolic lift like that?

Lands to Earth again?

[BitcoinForumator]

whats the story with vertcoin?? 400 odd percent gain there the last day and 2xx odd percent today??? wtf?

What happens usually after a parabolic lift like that?

Lands to Earth again?

i know that lol i aint buyin any but its just unusual to see those sort of gains twice in 1-3 days... :/

It happens very regularly in crypto.

[gimre]

I only have 800,000 NXT to dump and we r below 0,00005.

When I get back I will do this so i was polite warning you all.

oh and on vicrurex 90,000 NXT and we r below 0.00005 but that is to easy.

bye bye

you seem not to realize, how many people are actually waiting for some dumps