Devcoin

[DannyM]

Try this one: https://github.com/knotwork/old-devcoind

[vindimy]

Okay, I've compiled and ran devcoind-29-Nov-2012.tgz, and now it's saying this (while datadir isn't growing, stays at 15 MB):

Code:

:~/.devcoin$ ps aux|grep devcoind
dv       11683  0.4  0.4 710572  9752 ?        Ssl  20:02   0:01 devcoind -datadir=/home/dv/.devcoin/ -daemon
dv       11868  0.0  0.0   9384   876 pts/6    S+   20:06   0:00 grep --color=auto devcoind
:~/.devcoin$ devcoind getinfo
{
    "version" : 32400,
    "balance" : 0.00000000,
    "blocks" : 0,
    "connections" : 8,
    "proxy" : "",
    "generate" : false,
    "genproclimit" : -1,
    "difficulty" : 1.00000000,
    "hashespersec" : 0,
    "testnet" : false,
    "keypoololdest" : 1369252847,
    "paytxfee" : 0.00000000,
    "errors" : "WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
}

So it's an outdated version?

[vindimy]

Try this one: https://github.com/knotwork/old-devcoind

Compiler wasn't happy with this one.

Code:

:~/coins/old-devcoind/src$ make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP= bitcoind
make: *** No rule to make target `bitcoind'.  Stop.

Code:

:~/coins/old-devcoind/src$ make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP=
g++ -c -O2 -Wno-invalid-offsetof -Wformat -g -D__WXDEBUG__ -DNOPCH -DFOURWAYSSE2 -DUSE_SSL -I/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/wx/include/gtk2-unicode-release-2.8 -I/usr/include/wx-2.8 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -D_LARG
E_FILES -D__WXGTK__ -pthread -DGUI -o obj/util.o util.cpp
In file included from headers.h:93:0,
                 from util.cpp:4:
util.h: In function âvoid ExitThread(unsigned int)â:
util.h:653:25: warning: cast to pointer from integer of different size [-Wint-to-pointer-cast]
In file included from headers.h:99:0,
                 from util.cpp:4:
ui.h: At global scope:
ui.h:30:142: error: default argument for âconst wxString& captionâ has type âconst char [8]â
ui.h: In function âint MyMessageBox(const wxString&, const wxString&, int, wxWindow*, int, int)â:
ui.h:36:56: error: no matching function for call to âstd::basic_string<char>::basic_string(const wxString&)â
ui.h:36:56: note: candidates are:
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.h:527:9: note: template<class _InputIterator> std::basic_string::basic_string(_InputIterator, _InputIterator, const _Alloc&)
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:221:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type, _CharT, const _Alloc&) [with _CharT = c
har, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type = long unsigned int]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:221:5: note:   candidate expects 3 arguments, 1 provided
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:214:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const _CharT*, const _Alloc&) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc =
std::allocator<char>]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:214:5: note:   no known conversion for argument 1 from âconst wxStringâ to âconst char*â
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:207:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const _CharT*, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type, const _Alloc&) [with _Ch
arT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type = long unsigned int]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:207:5: note:   candidate expects 3 arguments, 1 provided
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:195:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>&, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>:
:size_type, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type, const _Alloc&) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _All
oc> = std::basic_string<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type = long unsigned int]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:195:5: note:   candidate expects 4 arguments, 1 provided
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:185:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>&, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>:
:size_type, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc> = std::basi
c_string<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type = long unsigned int]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:185:5: note:   candidate expects 3 arguments, 1 provided
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:171:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>&) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_tr
aits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc> = std::basic_string<char>]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:171:5: note:   no known conversion for argument 1 from âconst wxStringâ to âconst std::basic_string<char>&â
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:179:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const _Alloc&) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<
char>]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:179:5: note:   no known conversion for argument 1 from âconst wxStringâ to âconst std::allocator<char>&â
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.h:432:7: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string() [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.h:432:7: note:   candidate expects 0 arguments, 1 provided
ui.h:36:86: error: no matching function for call to âstd::basic_string<char>::basic_string(const wxString&)â
ui.h:36:86: note: candidates are:
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.h:527:9: note: template<class _InputIterator> std::basic_string::basic_string(_InputIterator, _InputIterator, const _Alloc&)
....
200 more lines of errors

[DannyM]

Okay, I've compiled and ran devcoind-29-Nov-2012.tgz, and now it's saying this (while datadir isn't growing, stays at 15 MB):

Code:

:~/.devcoin$ ps aux|grep devcoind
dv       11683  0.4  0.4 710572  9752 ?        Ssl  20:02   0:01 devcoind -datadir=/home/dv/.devcoin/ -daemon
dv       11868  0.0  0.0   9384   876 pts/6    S+   20:06   0:00 grep --color=auto devcoind
:~/.devcoin$ devcoind getinfo
{
    "version" : 32400,
    "balance" : 0.00000000,
    "blocks" : 0,
    "connections" : 8,
    "proxy" : "",
    "generate" : false,
    "genproclimit" : -1,
    "difficulty" : 1.00000000,
    "hashespersec" : 0,
    "testnet" : false,
    "keypoololdest" : 1369252847,
    "paytxfee" : 0.00000000,
    "errors" : "WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
}

So it's an outdated version?

Check debug.log

[DannyM]

Try this one: https://github.com/knotwork/old-devcoind

Compiler wasn't happy with this one.

Code:

:~/coins/old-devcoind/src$ make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP= bitcoind
make: *** No rule to make target `bitcoind'.  Stop.

Code:

:~/coins/old-devcoind/src$ make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP=
g++ -c -O2 -Wno-invalid-offsetof -Wformat -g -D__WXDEBUG__ -DNOPCH -DFOURWAYSSE2 -DUSE_SSL -I/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/wx/include/gtk2-unicode-release-2.8 -I/usr/include/wx-2.8 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -D_LARG
E_FILES -D__WXGTK__ -pthread -DGUI -o obj/util.o util.cpp
In file included from headers.h:93:0,
                 from util.cpp:4:
util.h: In function âvoid ExitThread(unsigned int)â:
util.h:653:25: warning: cast to pointer from integer of different size [-Wint-to-pointer-cast]
In file included from headers.h:99:0,
                 from util.cpp:4:
ui.h: At global scope:
ui.h:30:142: error: default argument for âconst wxString& captionâ has type âconst char [8]â
ui.h: In function âint MyMessageBox(const wxString&, const wxString&, int, wxWindow*, int, int)â:
ui.h:36:56: error: no matching function for call to âstd::basic_string<char>::basic_string(const wxString&)â
ui.h:36:56: note: candidates are:
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.h:527:9: note: template<class _InputIterator> std::basic_string::basic_string(_InputIterator, _InputIterator, const _Alloc&)
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:221:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type, _CharT, const _Alloc&) [with _CharT = c
har, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type = long unsigned int]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:221:5: note:   candidate expects 3 arguments, 1 provided
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:214:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const _CharT*, const _Alloc&) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc =
std::allocator<char>]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:214:5: note:   no known conversion for argument 1 from âconst wxStringâ to âconst char*â
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:207:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const _CharT*, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type, const _Alloc&) [with _Ch
arT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type = long unsigned int]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:207:5: note:   candidate expects 3 arguments, 1 provided
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:195:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>&, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>:
:size_type, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type, const _Alloc&) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _All
oc> = std::basic_string<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type = long unsigned int]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:195:5: note:   candidate expects 4 arguments, 1 provided
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:185:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>&, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>:
:size_type, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc> = std::basi
c_string<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::size_type = long unsigned int]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:185:5: note:   candidate expects 3 arguments, 1 provided
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:171:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>&) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_tr
aits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>, std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc> = std::basic_string<char>]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:171:5: note:   no known conversion for argument 1 from âconst wxStringâ to âconst std::basic_string<char>&â
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:179:5: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string(const _Alloc&) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<
char>]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.tcc:179:5: note:   no known conversion for argument 1 from âconst wxStringâ to âconst std::allocator<char>&â
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.h:432:7: note: std::basic_string<_CharT, _Traits, _Alloc>::basic_string() [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>, _Alloc = std::allocator<char>]
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.h:432:7: note:   candidate expects 0 arguments, 1 provided
ui.h:36:86: error: no matching function for call to âstd::basic_string<char>::basic_string(const wxString&)â
ui.h:36:86: note: candidates are:
/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/basic_string.h:527:9: note: template<class _InputIterator> std::basic_string::basic_string(_InputIterator, _InputIterator, const _Alloc&)
....
200 more lines of errors

make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP= devcoind

[shibaji]

So, what is the maximum number of DVC ever to be mined (like 20 million for BTC) ? I searched for the answer, but it seems confusing. The official sites say that it is 21 billion (1000X number of BTC), but now I hear it is unlimited - is that true ? Did the software get changed sometime after first release ?

The maximum number of coins in any on e wallet or address or in general any arithmetic/total, but coins will keep gettign created, 50,000 per block, forever. So some century or other maybe larger than 64 bit integers will have to start being use if more than 21 billion ever need to be added up in any one arithmetic operation.

-MarkM-

Are you saying the limit is not 21 billion total, and it is unlimited ? Is there a document which says that ? The source code seems to indicate 21 billion total ever to be produced.

[markm]

I even tried going back over previous whole page of posts be see nothing about Ubuntu at all.

Mention of Ubuntu is in reddit comment:

I did try, but devcoind process that I started on the server ended up consuming too much CPU and ultimately crashing. I think the latest release is either broken or doesn't work well under Ubuntu 12.04.

I'm running 64 bit Ubuntu server 12.04 and I was using the Devcoin binaries provided on Sourceforge. I also tried compiling it from sources on Github but ran into compiler errors (wasn't missing dependencies)... Main issue is high CPU usage, while all other coin daemons are fine..

Weird, but what indicates it has anything to do with Ubuntu?

Surely others are running it on Ubuntu, it is the most popular Linux lately isn't it?

Could it be that the guy has not got his receiver files in place so it is trying forever to get files or something?

I hadn't heard that Ubuntu had any libraries that use notably more CPU than their equivalents on other distros or anything like that.

So it could be something about the particular guy's setup not really an Ubuntu problem at all?

-MarkM-

[markm]

So, what is the maximum number of DVC ever to be mined (like 20 million for BTC) ? I searched for the answer, but it seems confusing. The official sites say that it is 21 billion (1000X number of BTC), but now I hear it is unlimited - is that true ? Did the software get changed sometime after first release ?

The maximum number of coins in any one wallet or address or in general any arithmetic/total, but coins will keep getting created, 50,000 per block, forever. So some century or other maybe larger than 64 bit integers will have to start being use if more than 21 billion ever need to be added up in any one arithmetic operation.

-MarkM-

Are you saying the limit is not 21 billion total, and it is unlimited ? Is there a document which says that ? The source code seems to indicate 21 billion total ever to be produced.

No, the source code indicates no individual variable containing a count of coins can count up to more than 21 billion.

Nowhere does the code add up all coins ever minted, it only adds up wallet, "account" and address totals. So as long as no individual wallet, "account" or address has more than 21 billion there could be billions of times that many coins total. It would just eventually need larger integers at some point if someone did try to add up all the coins in the entire blockchain.

Search for "subsidy" in main.cpp, it just does 50,000 coins per block forever, there is no halving and there is no block at which it stops minting.

-MarkM-

[vindimy]

make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP= devcoind

Okay, that worked - thanks. I now have a devcoid seemingly downloading blocks, CPU usage is normal so far. We'll see how it goes.

Code:

dv@gen-1:~/.devcoin$ devcoind getinfo
{
    "version" : 32400,
    "balance" : 0.00000000,
    "blocks" : 35202,
    "connections" : 8,
    "proxy" : "",
    "generate" : false,
    "genproclimit" : -1,
    "difficulty" : 66118.13417901,
    "hashespersec" : 0,
    "testnet" : false,
    "keypoololdest" : 1369254142,
    "paytxfee" : 0.00000000,
    "errors" : ""
}

The fact that it took this much support to just get devcoind running on Ubuntu means the owner of devcoin.org and/or Sourceforge repo should probably build devcoind with these instructions.. otherwise people will not be able to get started.

[FinShaggy]

So, what is the maximum number of DVC ever to be mined (like 20 million for BTC) ? I searched for the answer, but it seems confusing. The official sites say that it is 21 billion (1000X number of BTC), but now I hear it is unlimited - is that true ? Did the software get changed sometime after first release ?

The maximum number of coins in any one wallet or address or in general any arithmetic/total, but coins will keep getting created, 50,000 per block, forever. So some century or other maybe larger than 64 bit integers will have to start being use if more than 21 billion ever need to be added up in any one arithmetic operation.

-MarkM-

Are you saying the limit is not 21 billion total, and it is unlimited ? Is there a document which says that ? The source code seems to indicate 21 billion total ever to be produced.

No, the source code indicates no individual variable containing a count of coins can count up to more than 21 billion.

Nowhere does the code add up all coins ever minted, it only adds up wallet, "account" and address totals. So as long as no individual wallet, "account" or address has more than 21 billion there could be billions of times that many coins total. It would just eventually need larger integers at some point if someone did try to add up all the coins in the entire blockchain.

Search for "subsidy" in main.cpp, it just does 50,000 coins per block forever, there is no halving and there is no block at which it stops minting.

-MarkM-

So the price of coins is basically just based on the projects and the rarity of the coins as more people come on board.

[FinShaggy]

Can anyone that knows about mining help here?

[Icoin]

Can anyone that knows about mining help here?

i suggest to join the devcoin channel on freenode IRC


Devcoin developers please join the devcoin-dev channel on freenode

[FinShaggy]

Would anyone be interested in starting a "Church of Development". Where "god" is "the future", and we worship by making it better. Basically just a developmental coin charity that religiously works towards the future.

I am a certified minister and I will work to get non-profit status in my state, but here is the base for the organization, I already have 200 members:
https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=213405.0

If anyone wants to get married or exercise demons, I can legally do the ceremony

[EmilianoZ]

Devcoin is a great idea, but I am sure I read somewhere that creating any sort of money limitless is a problem for that currency, since it never aquires value

So, what is the maximum number of DVC ever to be mined (like 20 million for BTC) ? I searched for the answer, but it seems confusing. The official sites say that it is 21 billion (1000X number of BTC), but now I hear it is unlimited - is that true ? Did the software get changed sometime after first release ?

The maximum number of coins in any one wallet or address or in general any arithmetic/total, but coins will keep getting created, 50,000 per block, forever. So some century or other maybe larger than 64 bit integers will have to start being use if more than 21 billion ever need to be added up in any one arithmetic operation.

-MarkM-


Are you saying the limit is not 21 billion total, and it is unlimited ? Is there a document which says that ? The source code seems to indicate 21 billion total ever to be produced.

No, the source code indicates no individual variable containing a count of coins can count up to more than 21 billion.

Nowhere does the code add up all coins ever minted, it only adds up wallet, "account" and address totals. So as long as no individual wallet, "account" or address has more than 21 billion there could be billions of times that many coins total. It would just eventually need larger integers at some point if someone did try to add up all the coins in the entire blockchain.

Search for "subsidy" in main.cpp, it just does 50,000 coins per block forever, there is no halving and there is no block at which it stops minting.

-MarkM-


So the price of coins is basically just based on the projects and the rarity of the coins as more people come on board.

[FinShaggy]

Devcoin is a great idea, but I am sure I read somewhere that creating any sort of money limitless is a problem for that currency, since it never aquires value

So, what is the maximum number of DVC ever to be mined (like 20 million for BTC) ? I searched for the answer, but it seems confusing. The official sites say that it is 21 billion (1000X number of BTC), but now I hear it is unlimited - is that true ? Did the software get changed sometime after first release ?

The maximum number of coins in any one wallet or address or in general any arithmetic/total, but coins will keep getting created, 50,000 per block, forever. So some century or other maybe larger than 64 bit integers will have to start being use if more than 21 billion ever need to be added up in any one arithmetic operation.

-MarkM-


Are you saying the limit is not 21 billion total, and it is unlimited ? Is there a document which says that ? The source code seems to indicate 21 billion total ever to be produced.

No, the source code indicates no individual variable containing a count of coins can count up to more than 21 billion.

Nowhere does the code add up all coins ever minted, it only adds up wallet, "account" and address totals. So as long as no individual wallet, "account" or address has more than 21 billion there could be billions of times that many coins total. It would just eventually need larger integers at some point if someone did try to add up all the coins in the entire blockchain.

Search for "subsidy" in main.cpp, it just does 50,000 coins per block forever, there is no halving and there is no block at which it stops minting.

-MarkM-


So the price of coins is basically just based on the projects and the rarity of the coins as more people come on board.

That's not true. There is "limitless" oxygen, yet it sells when you purify it and put it in tanks.

As long as devcoin is working towards something, it has value to whoever wants those things done

[EmilianoZ]

I would say cryptocurrencies are like fiat money
Commodity monies (precious metals,
stones, or arrowheads) have values that are
independent of what they will buy. Fiat
money (paper currency) is valuable only
because it is money; its use is based on
faith.
Meaning their value is based on faith, faith tho the system creating the money, and faith to the people backing its value

[FinShaggy]

I would say cryptocurrencies are like fiat money
Commodity monies (precious metals,
stones, or arrowheads) have values that are
independent of what they will buy. Fiat
money (paper currency) is valuable only
because it is money; its use is based on
faith.
Meaning their value is based on faith, faith tho the system creating the money, and faith to the people backing its value

Except devcoin is not just faith, it has investment in the future (through the bounties). I guess if you consider "believing in the future" some form of "faith", then yeah it's just faith.

[EmilianoZ]

The example you offered is confounding the commodity of money with the resource it is based on.

That's not true. There is "limitless" oxygen, yet it sells when you purify it and put it in tanks.

As long as devcoin is working towards something, it has value to whoever wants those things done

[FinShaggy]

The example you offered is confounding the commodity of money with the resource it is based on.

That's not true. There is "limitless" oxygen, yet it sells when you purify it and put it in tanks.

As long as devcoin is working towards something, it has value to whoever wants those things done

Oxygen when put into tanks can fuel things.
Devcoin when put into people can develop things.

The simile is there, it's not that hard to understand.

[EmilianoZ]

What I am saying is the money's value is based on the backing society gives to it that is the faith part, you have to belive society would keep using that money.