[ANN][STD] StandardCoin - BUILT-IN EXCHANGE - Permanently Rising Rate

[standardcoin]

So you are basically using initial btc investment to buy back mined std.
If no new investors come to replenish btc reserves they'll eventually run out and someone will be left holding 0 value coins.
It's a blatant Ponzi.

No, each STD will worth at least at the GER. This is permanent.
The system won't need any new investor to replenish anything.
It just works.

Please read this post, I explained it there.
https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=522874.msg5877531#msg5877531

I read it, and my comment still holds true. Fixed initial btc reserve, more STD being produced = 0 btc left if more people sell than people are buying (as it is obvious with any market). Initial btc reserve can cover this for some time but not forever, unless new investors come (as with any Ponzi).
Blatant Ponzi and really cracks me up seeing so many people not figuring out for pages and pages xD
No amount of pseudo mathematical complexity can cover up this fundamental flaw, though you will get some noob confused enough to buy in, it seems.

Even all (Yes, ALL, not a lot not a ton, it's ALL)  the coins are dumped there are always enough BTC to buy back at the GER because GER = AMC/MMS (MMS = Max money supply, Max money supply means that the maximun amount of coins that can exist).
Can you give me an example when the stored BTC can not cover all the dumped coins?

Should I, really?

Let's say initial investors put in 400 btc and got 100 mil STD. GER is 400/400'000'000=0.000001
Let's say no new investor come. 300mil std will be mined and sold, and you have to use those 400 btc to buy them at 0.000001 for a total of 300 btc considering a fixed GER for simplicity (actually it's even worse because those btc used to buy miners' dump count in for AMS, increasing GER so you'll be able to buy back far less than all 300 mils before running out of btc). Then, after the mining process is finished 100 btc will be left (actually not even that, see previous parenthesis, but let's simplify). If initial investors want to withdraw now, they can only get 100 btc out of 400 invested.

Another scenario: let's say 100mil mined STD are bought by new investors, not you. For simplicity let's say all in one go. That will net 100 more btc at 0.000001. So now AMS=500 and GER=500/400'000'000=0.00000125
Let's say no new investors from now on. 200 more mil are mined and sold at 0.00000125 each for a total of 250 btc (with the same simplification: let's not consider this will raise GER, cause this will make the rest of the explanation even worse anyway). Now initial investors+new investors want to convert their 200mil back to btc, but they can only get the 250 remaining btc, out of 500 total investment (again, for simplicity, let's say they sell all in one go and GER stays the same. Actually it should go higher according to the system, but it doesn't change anything: they'll just buy back those 250 remaining btc with less STD and be left with 250 btc and some mil of useless STD).

I believe you misunderstood the system.
Please take a look at the table at the bottom of: https://standardcoin.net/
There will only 100m of STD will be mined.
the 200m of STD that will go to future investors is already mined.
And another 100m of STD are offered to initial investors.

The BTC that is used to buy back miner's coin is not counted for anything, it does'nt increase or decrease AMC, it doesn't affect the GER.
The maximum amount of STD that can exist is: 400m
If AMC is 400 BTC. Everybody can sell their STD to the system at 100 satoshi per STD. and when all 400m is sold, no more STD is in circulation and all BTC are returned back to investors.

Nope, I understood perfectly: already mined or not, if no new investors come, you'll have to buy 100 mil from miners at 100 satoshi, for a total of 100 btc, reducing initial reserve to 300 btc. 100 btc lost for initial investors.
If new investors buy those 200 premined mil raising the GER, then sell back, they will get more btc then they invested (obvious, cause GER increased and their bought STD now are worth more), and again those extra btc will be taken from initial 400 btc reserve. Plus the 100 mil mined. Initial investors will be losing even more in this case.
It's really that simple.

I really have no idea what the fuck are you talking about. But I have a special gift, just for you. Enjoy!
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=learning+basic+mathematics+online

[standardcoin]

Btw. Here is a screenshot of the demo exchange. I will deploy it within 24 hours.
https://i.imgur.com/qp8FxY8.png

[BTCspoon]

So, basically you're telling it's a PONZI SCHEME?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Yes he is, and it is.

When it's become pointless to discuss with someone, good old memes are here to save the day!

[Kreativekrypto]

Based on your theoretical example how many are going to be selling the 100 million all back at once assuming you're even correct. The chances of that are .0001% the same thing could happen to any coin. Its silly to talk in absolute values when humans are involved.

It doesn't matter all at a time or in small bits, the end result will be the same. You'll only be delaying the inevitable. 100 mil will be mined eventually and sold.
I'm really thinking to start my own ponzi if you are that easily fooled (assuming you are genuine and not a sockpuppet of the dev, of course).
But I'm too honest to do that.

[EDIT] and NO it's not the same for any coin, cause genuine coins' value CAN DROP. That's the fundamental difference between an investment and a Ponzi.

Ok, pointless to go on anyway xD

Looks like everything you and i believe in is nothing but a magical ponzi scheme, no I have no connection to the dev but here's some more fud to add to your heaping pile.

http://www.zdnet.com/bitcoin-confidence-game-is-a-ponzi-scheme-for-the-21st-century-7000027181/

[NickPortland]

Wait, the only way for STDs to increase in value is investors injecting more money into the private Exchange?

[standardcoin]

Wait, the only way for STDs to increase in value is investors injecting more money into the private Exchange?

Actually, there is another way. But this hasn't been announced yet. Miners can help increasing the AMC by mining at the private MultiPool.
There will be an official announcement about this soon.

[kache]

Selling, PM with offers:

[standardcoin]

Demo exchange is up: https://standardcoin.net/exchange

[BTCspoon]

There it is xD
1250 BTC

Slightly edited sorry, couldn't resist

[Kreativekrypto]

Private multipool sounds solid!

[dreamlucky]

Investors Read this

Quote from https://standardcoin.net/
"Example: 40 BTC is invested in total at the end of the Initial Price Valuation Phase. Investor A invested 10 BTC in this phase.
 Investor A will receive: 10/40 * 100,000,000 = 25,000,000 STD
 The AMC is now: 40 BTC.
 The GER is computed as follow: 40/400,000,000 = 0.000000010 BTC (= 10 Satoshi)"

So I have just invested 10 BTC and now have 25,000,000 worth 10 Satoshi = 2.5 BTC..... :/

The math above shows all initial investors will take an immediate 75% hit on profits.

Also typo on https://standardcoin.net/
Quote from https://standardcoin.net/
"Investor 1 decided to take profit. They sell 100,000,000 STD back to the store at the current GER rate which is 40 satoshi
 Investor 1 will receive 40 BTC.
 AMC is STILL 160 BTC
 GER is STILL 0.000000040 BTC (~ 40 satoshi)
 Stored STD is: 50,000,000 + 100,000,000 = 150,000,000 STD
The AMC is not affeted by this selling activity.
GER still stays at 40 satoshi no matter what."

This is incorrect as shown above Invester 1 (or A) didn't get 100,000,000 STD they got 25,000,000 and at 40 Sat they now have 10BTC their initial investment.

So the only example shown on the home page of someone making profits is not even correct.

[CHMinePeeR]

lol its just funny here look at you people...

It's a Ponzi? maybe yes, but where is the problem? Ponzis are hyip....Cryptos are hyip....

Lets raide that wave, i have a good feeling in this, i think the dev/admin has the knowledge to make this a nice "Programm" / "coin".

If his honesty is equel to his professionalism this can get huge, I hope you Admin know how to promote this Programm.....!!!

btw for now im inpressed of what i saw!


I have some good ideas for this Programm  

[zeetak]

Selling, PM with offers:

Anybody else notice that "permanent" is spelled wrong in the website logo but right in the wallet?

[CHMinePeeR]

Anybody else notice that "permanent" is spelled wrong in the website logo but right in the wallet?

lol..

[standardcoin]

Anybody else notice that "permanent" is spelled wrong in the website logo but right in the wallet?

lol..

Fixed it

[CHMinePeeR]

Anybody else notice that "permanent" is spelled wrong in the website logo but right in the wallet?

lol..

Fixed it

Well done fast guy

[saltinesk]

On the exchange page, when you click Buy or Sell, it says "The exchange is not openned yet.", that's one too many Ns.

Also, if I put in 1.0 bitcoin to buy, I would get over 13m STD at the current rate, but only 7m if I had paid 1.0 bitcoin during the price evaluation. So does this really mean that right when the exchange opens that I could get a better deal than those that paid during the price evaluation period? Why even have the price evaluation period?

[standardcoin]

On the exchange page, when you click Buy or Sell, it says "The exchange is not openned yet.", that's one too many Ns.

Also, if I put in 1.0 bitcoin to buy, I would get over 13m STD at the current rate, but only 7m if I had paid 1.0 bitcoin during the price evaluation. So does this really mean that right when the exchange opens that I could get a better deal than those that paid during the price evaluation period? Why even have the price evaluation period?

It was just a demo calculator so the number is not correct.
I removed the calculators temporary to avoid making people confused.
I also fixed the typo.

[jomay]

Not sure I understood the initial post, but I'm pretty sure I understand what happens longer term.

Assuming that the dev is trustworth and doesn't run away with BTC or STD... the price guarantee simply puts a lower bound (GER or "price guarantee") on the price, as well as an upper bound (the price you can currently buy from the remaining 50% reserve). The lower bound is at 1/4 of the value invested by early investors and hence they have to accept a possible 75% loss.

The upper bound can be derived as follows:
F = fraction of stored STD available, where 0 <= F <= 1
F/2*MMS = stored STD available
(1/AMC) * F * (MMS/2) = STD's received for one additional BTC invested (there's a tiny rounding approx in here)
(2/F) * (AMC/MMS) = (2/F) * GER = price in BTC/STD to buy from stored STD's

Hence, after the IPO the upper bound is 2*GER. As more people buy from the stored STD the GER goes up and the upper bound increases much faster than the GER.

In other words, after IPO at price z BTC/STD the market price will be between [0.25,0.5]*z BTC/STD or equivalently [1,2]*GER. Whilst it is traded between these bounds NOBODY will buy from the stored STD, but rather from a normal exchange.

Problems:
1) The initial investors in the IPO overpay - they could buy the coin for half of what they paid right after the IPO!
2) The price guarantee is useless as/if more people buy from the stored STD. If 90% of the stored STD were sold the price would be bounded between [1, 20]*GER.
3) The coin cannot go up easily! In addition to the coins generated by the miners there are 50% (!) of the total coins available for sale. Their marginal price is 2x the price paid be the initial investors and goes up slowly as the stored STDs are depleted.
4) The price can actually fall below GER if there are concerns that the dev is trustworthy. See Mt Gox.

Dear initial investors: your only hope can be that more people do not understand the mechanics.

You understand the system correctly. But there is a small mistake in your calculation.
(1/(AMC+1)) * F * (MMS/2) = STD's received for one additional BTC invested (there's a tiny rounding approx in here).
Re-calculate with the new formula, you will see that: The initial investors who join the Price Valuation Phase are the ones that buy at the best rate.

And you also forgot that, when someone dump their STD at GER, the stored STD will increase, which mean more STD for new investors, more profit.

To be honest, it feels like I'm the only one on this forum that understands the system and the math behind it correctly... either I'm a genius or there are a lot of high school kiddies on here.

Regarding your comment: no, the initial investors buy at a bad price. I think someone on the forum also already noticed it that buying after the price valuation phase gives you STD's at roughly half price.

Here are the details: the +1 in 1/(AMC+1) does not make a difference, it is a quantisation effect, as it relates to 1 additional BTC invested. However, to get the true marginal rate for buying STD's you'd have to consider an (infinitesimal) small additional investment of x BTC from the reserve. The accurate formula then is:
S STD's received for x BTC invested:
   S = (x/(AMC+x)) * F * (MMS/2)
   S = F*x*MMS/(2*(AMC+x))
Hence the price paid in BTC/STD is:
   x/S = 2*(AMC+x) / (MMS*F)
simplifying yields:
   x/S = (2/F)*(AMC/MMS + x/MMS)
   x/S = (2/F) * (GER + x/MMS)
Obviously x can be very small, as a buy may choose to buy 0.01 BTC worth of STD's etc.
Taking lim(x/S) for x->0 (i.e. an infinitesimal small buyer) we get the result I stated initially:
   x/S ~= (2/F) * GER

It is possible to fix this, but I can't be bothered going through that now. You can make me a partner, though and I'll think about it again.
Oh well, I guess the simplest fix would be to half the number of STD's received in the S = ... formula.

[standardcoin]

Not sure I understood the initial post, but I'm pretty sure I understand what happens longer term.

Assuming that the dev is trustworth and doesn't run away with BTC or STD... the price guarantee simply puts a lower bound (GER or "price guarantee") on the price, as well as an upper bound (the price you can currently buy from the remaining 50% reserve). The lower bound is at 1/4 of the value invested by early investors and hence they have to accept a possible 75% loss.

The upper bound can be derived as follows:
F = fraction of stored STD available, where 0 <= F <= 1
F/2*MMS = stored STD available
(1/AMC) * F * (MMS/2) = STD's received for one additional BTC invested (there's a tiny rounding approx in here)
(2/F) * (AMC/MMS) = (2/F) * GER = price in BTC/STD to buy from stored STD's

Hence, after the IPO the upper bound is 2*GER. As more people buy from the stored STD the GER goes up and the upper bound increases much faster than the GER.

In other words, after IPO at price z BTC/STD the market price will be between [0.25,0.5]*z BTC/STD or equivalently [1,2]*GER. Whilst it is traded between these bounds NOBODY will buy from the stored STD, but rather from a normal exchange.

Problems:
1) The initial investors in the IPO overpay - they could buy the coin for half of what they paid right after the IPO!
2) The price guarantee is useless as/if more people buy from the stored STD. If 90% of the stored STD were sold the price would be bounded between [1, 20]*GER.
3) The coin cannot go up easily! In addition to the coins generated by the miners there are 50% (!) of the total coins available for sale. Their marginal price is 2x the price paid be the initial investors and goes up slowly as the stored STDs are depleted.
4) The price can actually fall below GER if there are concerns that the dev is trustworthy. See Mt Gox.

Dear initial investors: your only hope can be that more people do not understand the mechanics.

You understand the system correctly. But there is a small mistake in your calculation.
(1/(AMC+1)) * F * (MMS/2) = STD's received for one additional BTC invested (there's a tiny rounding approx in here).
Re-calculate with the new formula, you will see that: The initial investors who join the Price Valuation Phase are the ones that buy at the best rate.

And you also forgot that, when someone dump their STD at GER, the stored STD will increase, which mean more STD for new investors, more profit.

To be honest, it feels like I'm the only one on this forum that understands the system and the math behind it correctly... either I'm a genius or there are a lot of high school kiddies on here.

Regarding your comment: no, the initial investors buy at a bad price. I think someone on the forum also already noticed it that buying after the price valuation phase gives you STD's at roughly half price.

Here are the details: the +1 in 1/(AMC+1) does not make a difference, it is a quantisation effect, as it relates to 1 additional BTC invested. However, to get the true marginal rate for buying STD's you'd have to consider an (infinitesimal) small additional investment of x BTC from the reserve. The accurate formula then is:
S STD's received for x BTC invested:
   S = (x/(AMC+x)) * F * (MMS/2)
   S = F*x*MMS/(2*(AMC+x))
Hence the price paid in BTC/STD is:
   x/S = 2*(AMC+x) / (MMS*F)
simplifying yields:
   x/S = (2/F)*(AMC/MMS + x/MMS)
   x/S = (2/F) * (GER + x/MMS)
Obviously x can be very small, as a buy may choose to buy 0.01 BTC worth of STD's etc.
Taking lim(x/S) for x->0 (i.e. an infinitesimal small buyer) we get the result I stated initially:
   x/S ~= (2/F) * GER

It is possible to fix this, but I can't be bothered going through that now. You can make me a partner, though and I'll think about it again.
Oh well, I guess the simplest fix would be to half the number of STD's received in the S = ... formula.

Yeah, you are right, I noticed that. We will need to tweak the formula a little bit. Thank you for the hint. I'm working on it.
I can't make you a partner but I can donate you some BTC from my own pocket.
what is your BTC address?