Europe needs to stick the finger out and rebuild the military industry

[paxmao]

From the Munich conference a few things have become clear.

After JD Vance's speech, which was like listening to a creature comming from another planet - not in a good sense - saying that Putin is not a threat to Europe, that the threat is not letting Putin take over Romania (implicitly) and not allowing disinformation campaigns, the the German representative tell him to basically f*ck off....

And then came the obvious conclusions, presented by several key French, German and Baltic leaders - with a Chorus by Zelensky - US is no longer a reliable ally. At any moment, Trump will decide that Europe need to "pay for protection" like he is doing with Ukraine (perhaps not even that, he is simply telling Ukraine to pay without protection).

So, there is no way around, Europe has to pay, but most of the leader are agreeing now that if it comes to spending on military, it will be done in by developing the local industries.

In my view, Europe has an unique opportunity to invest with the learnings of Ukraine - more unmanned vehicle, better defensive means, different tactics and, over all, a wide nuclear deterrence.

All this is costly, but it is the price of having Putin around, so...

BTW,... "I told you" like... a year ago.

https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=5484886.0

[AVE5]

So likely Europe have to be paying the US according to Trump just to get military protection?
Isn't that going to be a look down on them for incapability of developing their own military services? Of course yes because the Europ and the US has been on the context of rivalry strategically on power struggles.
Instead of the Europ keying in to the Trump condition why not they just invest all that money to enhance their own military facilities? I think that'd also give them some more confidence in case ....

[coolcoinz]

So, according to you, is Putin a threat to Europe? I mean, what can he do? It's not like he's going to take whatever tanks he have left and drive to Berlin

IMO Putin is stuck in a position he never wanted to be. He thought he'd take Kiev by force, change the government to a pro-Russian one and from that point fake all elections like he's doing in Russia and in puppet states like Chechenya. Instead he lost a few refineries. Lost pump stations that allowed him to sell oil, lost gas pipeline, Baltic States are no longer buying his power... EU was supposed to freeze to death without Russian gas and nothing happened...

Vance is right, the US shouldn't support Ukraine for free.

[alani123]

You're on the right track to say something but you draw the wrong conclusions.

A war industry is a recipe for disaster because eventually you're not going to need so many wespons and then your factories will be worthless. Then your country will be billions in debt and because the machinery is so specific it can't be repurposed.

Have you considered, are we self sufficient as a continent? We produce oil and metals yet we export so much of it to the Americas and Asia for processing and then import the processed products. We need to rebuild our value added industry. We can't just be exporting our minerals. Countries in the south should be given subsidies to create processing plants locally to fulfill their local needs and not have to depend on American oil.

We should take care of these issues first. They would create so many jobs and make European countries more independent. But EU interests are just there to serve big capital and not what we really need.

We need cheap electricity but they benefit from high energy prices. Etc. you get the idea.
It's better we just get out of the EU if it keeps being like this. Euro federalism will never work. The increase in integration made it worse for everyone actually.

[paxmao]

So, according to you, is Putin a threat to Europe? I mean, what can he do? It's not like he's going to take whatever tanks he have left and drive to Berlin

IMO Putin is stuck in a position he never wanted to be. He thought he'd take Kiev by force, change the government to a pro-Russian one and from that point fake all elections like he's doing in Russia and in puppet states like Chechenya. Instead he lost a few refineries. Lost pump stations that allowed him to sell oil, lost gas pipeline, Baltic States are no longer buying his power... EU was supposed to freeze to death without Russian gas and nothing happened...

Vance is right, the US shouldn't support Ukraine for free.

Putin is a threat to anything that is near Putin. I mean... Ruzzia invaded Finland not that long ago, they have gone after a number of countries around and now Ukraine. Do we need to get it Morse coded to our radios to understand?  His aim is to rebuild the extension of the old USSR and that includes the Baltics, the Balcans, Poland, half of Germany, Slovakia, ... One bit at a time, by subversion or invasion don't matter.

Of course he did not want to get into this position, but he seems ok with keeping it going. I think the rationale is "I am not going to run out of people, I am not going to be deposed or killed by anyone - Ruzzians will starve before revolting - the economy.. phew... I have enough money and the CEOs that complaint will be sent to Siberia.

To reach peace, Ukraine needs to push and gain ground in the Donbas. That would create a sufficiently unconfortable situation to make Ruzzia seek peace honestly and in fair terms.

US is not supporting Ukraine "for free", there is obviously an economic interest and a desire to avoid Ruzzia's being too strong from what looks like an innevitable conflict with China.

BTW, it is the Ukranian people who are dying, while the US complains about having to send over 0.5% of their GDP even if so in exchange for removing vasts amounts of vehicles that could potentially be passed to China in the future.

[o48o]

From the Munich conference a few things have become clear.

After JD Vance's speech, which was like listening to a creature comming from another planet - not in a good sense - saying that Putin is not a threat to Europe, that the threat is not letting Putin take over Romania (implicitly) and not allowing disinformation campaigns, the the German representative tell him to basically f*ck off....

And then came the obvious conclusions, presented by several key French, German and Baltic leaders - with a Chorus by Zelensky - US is no longer a reliable ally. At any moment, Trump will decide that Europe need to "pay for protection" like he is doing with Ukraine (perhaps not even that, he is simply telling Ukraine to pay without protection).

So, there is no way around, Europe has to pay, but most of the leader are agreeing now that if it comes to spending on military, it will be done in by developing the local industries.

In my view, Europe has an unique opportunity to invest with the learnings of Ukraine - more unmanned vehicle, better defensive means, different tactics and, over all, a wide nuclear deterrence.
All this is costly, but it is the price of having Putin around, so...

BTW,... "I told you" like... a year ago.

https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=5484886.0

As an old pacifist, one starts to think if it would be smart to invest in some responsible European weapon industry, or to innovative companies that develop tech that can be used in weaponizing.

Investing to weapon tech is less unethical now, but because of responsibility of business is to increase its profits, they are basically going always to be lobbying pro-gun laws even if there's no wars. And that could lead up to situations like in US, and without good enough support networks, it just brings out more mass shootings and all that. Not to mention that there's no control over which entities ends up buying them in the end.

[paxmao]

From the Munich conference a few things have become clear.

After JD Vance's speech, which was like listening to a creature comming from another planet - not in a good sense - saying that Putin is not a threat to Europe, that the threat is not letting Putin take over Romania (implicitly) and not allowing disinformation campaigns, the the German representative tell him to basically f*ck off....

And then came the obvious conclusions, presented by several key French, German and Baltic leaders - with a Chorus by Zelensky - US is no longer a reliable ally. At any moment, Trump will decide that Europe need to "pay for protection" like he is doing with Ukraine (perhaps not even that, he is simply telling Ukraine to pay without protection).

So, there is no way around, Europe has to pay, but most of the leader are agreeing now that if it comes to spending on military, it will be done in by developing the local industries.

In my view, Europe has an unique opportunity to invest with the learnings of Ukraine - more unmanned vehicle, better defensive means, different tactics and, over all, a wide nuclear deterrence.
All this is costly, but it is the price of having Putin around, so...

BTW,... "I told you" like... a year ago.

https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=5484886.0

As an old pacifist, one starts to think if it would be smart to invest in some responsible European weapon industry, or to innovative companies that develop tech that can be used in weaponizing.

Investing to weapon tech is less unethical now, but because of responsibility/url] of business is to increase its profits, they are basically going always to be lobbying pro-gun laws even if there's no wars. And that could lead up to situations like in US, and without good enough support networks, it just brings out more mass shootings and all that. Not to mention that there's no control over which entities ends up buying them in the end.

Which is all true, but not the only truth. Unfortunately to be very moral and responsible you need to be alive, have a country that works and do not be under the foot of a dictator. All those things are much easier when you have a sufficient deterrent.

Europe has been getting the "peace dividend" of bein under NATO umbrella, but that is no longer there so... time to act. As Borrel said, you cannot be a sheep in a world of wolves.

[Zlantann]

Europe has been getting the "peace dividend" of bein under NATO umbrella, but that is no longer there so... time to act. As Borrel said, you cannot be a sheep in a world of wolves.

It is not too late for Europe to start developing military capacities because the US under Donald Trump cannot be trusted.  China was able to copy US military equipment and they are producing cheaper but effective versions.  Europe has been busy relying on the US for protection and investing little in defence. Reports showed that Poland and Estonia were the biggest spenders on defence among NATO nations in the first half of 2024, what are other big member states doing? They need to increase their defence budget to at least 5% of GDP to fund research and arms production.

Since the US has decided to be friendly with Russia, European nations would have to seek new partnerships. I am sure that some countries in Africa, Asia and South America will be willing to work with European countries..

[paxmao]

Europe has been getting the "peace dividend" of bein under NATO umbrella, but that is no longer there so... time to act. As Borrel said, you cannot be a sheep in a world of wolves.

It is not too late for Europe to start developing military capacities because the US under Donald Trump cannot be trusted.  China was able to copy US military equipment and they are producing cheaper but effective versions.  Europe has been busy relying on the US for protection and investing little in defence. Reports showed that Poland and Estonia were the biggest spenders on defence among NATO nations in the first half of 2024, what are other big member states doing? They need to increase their defence budget to at least 5% of GDP to fund research and arms production.

Since the US has decided to be friendly with Russia, European nations would have to seek new partnerships. I am sure that some countries in Africa, Asia and South America will be willing to work with European countries..

Absolutely, there is a super-wide scope to work with Latin America. I think Europe would make for a much better partner that the US, given how confrontational and bully they have become. There are interesting news from the "new" Argentina that has become "investable".

For now Europe is unfortunately only talking about getting to the 2%. From there, either the US says no anyway, and then EU would need to go to 5% or keep NATO active and then 2% sufffices.

[Tipstar]

Europe has been getting the "peace dividend" of bein under NATO umbrella, but that is no longer there so... time to act. As Borrel said, you cannot be a sheep in a world of wolves.

It is not too late for Europe to start developing military capacities because the US under Donald Trump cannot be trusted.  China was able to copy US military equipment and they are producing cheaper but effective versions.  Europe has been busy relying on the US for protection and investing little in defence. Reports showed that Poland and Estonia were the biggest spenders on defence among NATO nations in the first half of 2024, what are other big member states doing? They need to increase their defence budget to at least 5% of GDP to fund research and arms production.

Since the US has decided to be friendly with Russia, European nations would have to seek new partnerships. I am sure that some countries in Africa, Asia and South America will be willing to work with European countries..

Europe's future doesn't look bright. Their policies had made them dependent on other nations and their manufacturing and industry is lagging behind. Europe is no longer the leader in R&D and their intellectual property are either expired or obsolete. They have no large natural resource reserve to exploit. They might fuel their nuclear generators through Uranium from Canada and Australia but they no longer have the capacity to create a new one.
The projection for 2030 states the top 5 economy to be US, China, India, Indonesia and Brazil. All of which are moving away from Europe due to their policies. Even though they trade with Europe, it would be Europe importing more and exporting nothing.

[Spaceman1000$]

This is just like saying Europe have not been fighting Putin, those guys have been fighting Putin underground all along, it's just that they've not had physical combat which is what you think Europe should be prepared for by building strong military Base maybe across Europe. I remember the circumstances surrounding the sale of Chelsea football club by it's owner then Roman Abramovich, just because he was an ally of Putin and other sanctions that where placed on him,  all this goes to show that the crisis has been building up over time, if they decide to go physical then we shouldn't be too surprise.

[uneng]

Unfortunatelly it was expected USA would turn from a reliable ally to a shady mercenary under Trump's rulership. He let it very clear during the campaign by telling US wouldn't help NATO's countries which don't invest a determined percentage of their GDP in defense.

Now Trump openly attacks Zelensky with lies and misinformation. There are no doubts anymore about the bad character of Trump, as he acted like a scoundrel, just to praise Putin and maybe, to earn some sympathy from him. What an erroneous move... There isn't any better strategy than being true and honored towards the situations presented by life. But Trump prefers being the "joker" of the cards, which fits anywhere, depending the current necessity and goal.

Now Europe is by itself. And considering the decadence they are facing regards society and culture, especially with most recent generations, they are really in bad shape to display strength and confidence against enemies. Actually, the enemies are already in european countries, destroying them from inside...

[jstyler]

totally agree with u, europe needs to put its own house in order before it can even think about rebuilding its military, and that means addressing the internal rot, cultural and societal decay, before it can project strength and confidence against external enemies

[be.open]

BTW,... "I told you" like... a year ago.

Everything that is happening in Ukraine now is, by and large, not a story about Ukraine, it is a struggle for the redistribution of spheres of influence in Europe. Russia is not satisfied with the current state of affairs, in which Europe is actually occupied by the United States and is under the protection of NATO. According to Russia, this is a threat to its security and generally destabilizes the situation in the region. I think following the results of the special operation in Ukraine, continental Europe will pass under the military protectorate of Russia. That is, Russia will be the guarantor of security in Europe and ensure stability in the region.

[paxmao]

BTW,... "I told you" like... a year ago.

Everything that is happening in Ukraine now is, by and large, not a story about Ukraine, it is a struggle for the redistribution of spheres of influence in Europe. Russia is not satisfied with the current state of affairs, in which Europe is actually occupied by the United States and is under the protection of NATO. According to Russia, this is a threat to its security and generally destabilizes the situation in the region. I think following the results of the special operation in Ukraine, continental Europe will pass under the military protectorate of Russia. That is, Russia will be the guarantor of security in Europe and ensure stability in the region.

That is interesting, but it has not happened, so... I guess you are very proud of not predicting correctly? Following the results of the war in Ukraine, Ruzzia has shown that is unable to take a country 20 times smaller??

Europe has the economic and industrial strengh to create an European army. There has been an understanding between the US and Europe on regards to global security that has worked more or less, but there is no reason why there cannot be another,

I think we have to thank your dictator for this change, it may actually be good for Europe to grow.

[be.open]

That is interesting, but it has not happened

Really? The conflict in Ukraine is a hybrid proxy war between Russia and the US for influence in Europe. It seems that Europe is no longer interesting to the US.

[paxmao]

That is interesting, but it has not happened

Really? The conflict in Ukraine is a hybrid proxy war between Russia and the US for influence in Europe. It seems that Europe is no longer interesting to the US.

That is not a fact, it is your interpretation. Europe has not become a protectorate of Ruzzia, but it certainly getting ready to provide Ukraine with means of self defence... so, nothing like you predicted. Â Just keep it there and wait, who knows... maybe in 100 or 200 years your descendants will claim you were right or something like that.

Look, I know you watch the Ruzzian TV, that is not a problem, the problem is that you seem to actually believe it.



Nothing unites more than a common enemy.

But congratulations, your GDP is more than Spain. Or it was before Ukraine's drone strikes in the oil facilities, the embargo,... etc 

[Ucy]

That is interesting, but it has not happened

Really? The conflict in Ukraine is a hybrid proxy war between Russia and the US for influence in Europe. It seems that Europe is no longer interesting to the US.

Russia is more interested in defending herself than influencing other nations. True influence comes naturally to more intelligent people or nations... It's not imposed. It's like a father having great influence over his children because he knows more than they do and uses the knowledge for their own good.  Such influence is also equal to power, the more influencial the more powerful one become.
As an influential person, if you support certain things because you know they are right, they work. If you are against certain things because they are wrong, they fail. It's basically you passing judgment based on how things naturally/spiritually works, and the judgement becomes true.
This natural influence is not like the aggressive influence people try to force or impose on others, especially through incentives, brainwashing, sanctions, etc. You just do the right thing and it works.

The conflict in Ukraine is as a result of Russia defending herself, protecting her borders and her people from nations/people with agenda to colonize, weaken or breakup her up.. This is basically why Donbas and Crimea were taken. They do not want to be part of system that despises Russia.. It's actually very risky for them to stay after a 2014 forceful removal of Pro-Russia President who believes that Ukraine is better off aligning with Russia than nations that are more interested in Russia's defeat and breakup.

[aoluain]

From the Munich conference a few things have become clear.

After JD Vance's speech, which was like listening to a creature comming from another planet - not in a good sense - saying that Putin is not a threat to Europe, that the threat is not letting Putin take over Romania (implicitly) and not allowing disinformation campaigns, the the German representative tell him to basically f*ck off....

And then came the obvious conclusions, presented by several key French, German and Baltic leaders - with a Chorus by Zelensky - US is no longer a reliable ally. At any moment, Trump will decide that Europe need to "pay for protection" like he is doing with Ukraine (perhaps not even that, he is simply telling Ukraine to pay without protection).

So, there is no way around, Europe has to pay, but most of the leader are agreeing now that if it comes to spending on military, it will be done in by developing the local industries.

In my view, Europe has an unique opportunity to invest with the learnings of Ukraine - more unmanned vehicle, better defensive means, different tactics and, over all, a wide nuclear deterrence.

All this is costly, but it is the price of having Putin around, so...

BTW,... "I told you" like... a year ago.

https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=5484886.0

Yea looks like Europe does have a dilemma not that Trump has decided to get back to friendly
terms with Russia. It seems that Europe will not be enjoying the same backup from the US it
had just a number of weeks ago. I know there will be  lot of people calling that we shouldnt
be spending resources on more military but while the war is ongoing in Ukraine Europe is
less safe.

That is interesting, but it has not happened

Really? The conflict in Ukraine is a hybrid proxy war between Russia and the US for influence in Europe. It seems that Europe is no longer interesting to the US.

Russia is more interested in defending herself than influencing other nations. True influence comes naturally to more intelligent people or nations... It's not imposed. It's like a father having great influence over his children because he knows more than they do and uses the knowledge for their own good.  Such influence is also equal to power, the more influencial the more powerful one become.
As an influential person, if you support certain things because you know they are right, they work. If you are against certain things because they are wrong, they fail. It's basically you passing judgment based on how things naturally/spiritually works, and the judgement becomes true.
This natural influence is not like the aggressive influence people try to force or impose on others, especially through incentives, brainwashing, sanctions, etc. You just do the right thing and it works.

The conflict in Ukraine is as a result of Russia defending herself, protecting her borders and her people from nations/people with agenda to colonize, weaken or breakup her up.. This is basically why Donbas and Crimea were taken. They do not want to be part of system that despises Russia.. It's actually very risky for them to stay after a 2014 forceful removal of Pro-Russia President who believes that Ukraine is better off aligning with Russia than nations that are more interested in Russia's defeat and breakup.

NO - this is why Russia invaded Ukraine > https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20le8jn282o

Ukraine has significant deposits of rare earth metals. These are a group of 17 elements that are
used to produce weapons, wind turbines, electronics and other products vital in the modern world.

Some of the mineral deposits, however, have been seized by Russia. According to Yulia Svyrydenko,
Ukraine's economy minister, resources worth $350bn (£277bn) remain in occupied territories today.

Its all about resources

Kyiv and Washington are close to signing a deal over US access to Ukraine's mineral deposits,
a Ukrainian minister says.

[coolcoinz]

 His aim is to rebuild the extension of the old USSR and that includes the Baltics, the Balcans, Poland, half of Germany, Slovakia, ... One bit at a time, by subversion or invasion don't matter.

So according to you he'd like to build a new USSR, because the countries you've mentioned (apart from the Baltics) were never a part of the Soviet Union, but Ukraine was!
Putin treats the former Soviet Union countries like they're a part of Russia, which is why he attacked Chechenya, but he knows Poland, Germany and Slovakia are ethnically different and would never submit.
Also, if we're talking about the former Warsaw Pact, why mention Poland and Slovakia, but not Hungary or Czech Republic? They were held exactly the same status in the Soviet Union -as allies.
Unfortunately that's long gone and they have allied themselves with the West.

Even if there was no NATO, Russia would not have enough firepower to conquer these countries. They'd get spread thin transporting troops and vehicles 2000 km into enemy territory and eventually cut off and they know it.

That is, Russia will be the guarantor of security in Europe and ensure stability in the region.

Russian word means nothing. The way they handled The Budapest Memorandum is the latest example of why nobody should ever trust Russia.
To remind you: The memoranda,(...) prohibited Russia, the United States and the United Kingdom from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan.