After I stopped getting paid, here is some food for thought...

[LoyceV]

This is not a good model here.

Isn't that how taxation works in most countries? A tax on income and another tax on capital gains.

Are there signs that this taxation framework will change any soon in your country?

Even if it changes, I wouldn't expect taxes to get less.

[AVE5]

You've really shook the table with all being said and you're just too genuine from the sight of honesty.
I'll actually agree with you that the advents of the forum being resourceful to user's is the major reason why the forum is standing out above any bitcoin and crypto related platforms. The payment purpose is why MOST user's if (not all) are proactive in the forum investing their times, building their mental states to fit-in and provides the communities with the best of their qualities as the forum also requires.
But exceptionally, the forum is integrated to educate it users in both crypto, economy, politics and every other activities in the universe. Therefore there're still users who don't prioritize their being here for the payment but focus on the acknowledgement explores.
Moreover the forum is fun and comfortable to be like the real world, so I myself can still keep up my best for it without getting paid.

[babo]

Haha, it's funny because I'm the exact opposite. I type faster than I write, but I type too slowly. Imagine how slowly I write. 

Everyone has their own passions, we are not all the same, there is no one better or worse than another
we are simply different
I started playing with code and computers when I was little, for me they are an integral part and an extension, and I started "chatting" on the internet very early on with the never forgotten IRC
then moving on to ICQ, my first messaging client
those were the early years of the internet and it was very different from now

[GeorgeJohn]

I'll actually agree with you that the advents of the forum being resourceful to user's is the major reason why the forum is standing out above any bitcoin and crypto related platforms.

I have said these before, that if they wasn't earning in bitcointalk many user's would have lose confidence staying in the forum, why bitcointalk is having traffics over other crypto related platforms is because of earning over here.

The payment purpose is why MOST user's if (not all) are proactive in the forum investing their times, building their mental states to fit-in and provides the communities with the best of their qualities as the forum also requires.

Yeah, i have notice that, if user's is out of campaign most of them don't be proactive within that range.. And i also noticed that earning is part of what keep bitcointalk traffic ongoing.

But exceptionally, the forum is integrated to educate it users in both crypto, economy, politics and every other activities in the universe.

Forum is universal knowledge donor, forum impacts knowledges to human, it teaches so many things, but only if the users in the forum concentrate to acquire knowledge...

[vapourminer]

Thought experiment: take away the average adult's phone. See how they react

i lugged around a TRS-80 4P "portable" computer with (built in!) 1200 baud modem back in the day. i can do it again.  

[joker_josue]

Experience matters a lot, since history is a good indicator for our future actions. So I reckon your answer is based on historical facts, but don't forget that "Past performance does not guarantee future results" (joke for the investors in here)

It's true. That's why I'm no longer on that forum (I think it still exists, but I didn't even check...)

The point is: at this point it will not be the fact that the financial incentive no longer exists, that would keep me away from the forum.
I can't say if 6 or a year later, I would say the same. I could even lower activity a little, but I believe I would stay involved for a long time

Now, of course, this incentive helps a lot in maintaining the focus of continuing to support the community.

[OgNasty]

Thought experiment: take away the average adult's phone. See how they react

i lugged around a TRS-80 4P "portable" computer with (built in!) 1200 baud modem back in the day. i can do it again.  

Man, what year was that? 1991?

I honestly barely even touch a regular computer these days. I go weeks at a time without sitting down at one. If it wasn’t for mobile phones with dictation, I would probably struggle to make one post per day here…

[joker_josue]

I kept thinking about those words...

Sorry I can't comment a lot on this. I wanna be as lawful as it gets, even though I hate taxes and totally dislike the unfair politics behind it. I can only tell you that since I've got a family, I can't think for my own anymore, I need to think for my kids as well. So, even if you think that I can simply receive payments in an address and live off of it, and even if it's true, I can't do it.

Profits from trading is a completely other story. It's not considered income, but rather investment gain and it has a 15% flat tax for complex assets (like crypto is considered).

It's not about being unable to hide income from taxes, it's about being able to use your money legally.

This is a much better (and simpler) answer than my answer above  

If you don't have it... you can't use it. If you have it, and you don't use it... it's the same for now.

So why not just hold it and decide when to use it when you feel it's most appropriate, with the least possible complications?

It's similar to people who say they don't invest because they have to pay taxes. But if they don't invest, they're losing money. If they invest and make a profit, they'll earn more, even after paying taxes.


Now, of course, everyone knows the reality of their own country and their own life. Therefore, they should act wisely based on that knowledge, doing what is best for themselves and their loved ones.


It was merely a reflection, with no intention of questioning or criticizing motives or decisions. Like any investment, one should only risk what one is willing to lose.

[apogio]

This is not a good model here. Are there signs that this taxation framework will change any soon in your country?

Even if it changes, I wouldn't expect taxes to get less.

Actually the model does change, but the taxes increase It's almost as the system is trying to make it look easier and better for someone who earns really a small amount of money, to try to hide it. I mean, financially, if someone earns such small amounts from here and there, it's almost as the system tells them to hide it or stop it, instead of finding a solution for these people.

If you don't have it... you can't use it. If you have it, and you don't use it... it's the same for now.

So why not just hold it and decide when to use it when you feel it's most appropriate, with the least possible complications?

If I get paid, in any form of money, I need to declare it and pay taxes upon it, regardless of whether I sold or used the money. Think of it this way, we're in EU, so we have Euros. If I was paid in Euros, keeping it in my bank account and not using it for 10 years, would that be tax free? Of course not! It doesn't matter that it's bitcoin. The investment tax will come when I sell and get a profit, but the income tax comes instantly when you get paid.

Moreover the forum is fun and comfortable to be like the real world, so I myself can still keep up my best for it without getting paid.

Yeah, this is my conclusion as well. I'm using it for fun and as I said above, I'm using it as much as I want, not as much as I can.

i lugged around a TRS-80 4P "portable" computer with (built in!) 1200 baud modem back in the day. i can do it again. 

Man, what year was that? 1991?

Wow, we're proving our age here or what? Incredible piece and it must have been long before 1991, but can't really say how old it may be. (lazy to look for details - but the internet says 1983)

[joker_josue]

If I get paid, in any form of money, I need to declare it and pay taxes upon it, regardless of whether I sold or used the money. Think of it this way, we're in EU, so we have Euros. If I was paid in Euros, keeping it in my bank account and not using it for 10 years, would that be tax free? Of course not! It doesn't matter that it's bitcoin. The investment tax will come when I sell and get a profit, but the income tax comes instantly when you get paid

I understand that.

The question then becomes how you classify this gain: work? donation? investment? For each of these situations, the analysis and statement are different.

But, as I said, I don't want to judge or criticize you. You know better than anyone what the laws of your country are like and how you should deal with them in your case. 

[Pmalek]

Food for thought (some questions that I have):
1. If you stopped getting paid today, for any reason, would you post with the same zeal that you post today? And more importantly, if you weren't getting paid, would you really need to say all the things that you say when you get paid?

It would be very easy to answer this question with YES, but the truth is who knows. I like to think that I would and I hope I would if it comes to that. There have been periods in recent years where I haven't been in paid campaigns or where I voluntarily wore unpaid signatures of services and websites I believed were worth advertising. But even in those times between campaigns, in the back of your mind I expected I would participate in a paid campaign soon. I don't like social media, and I definitely wouldn't be getting my daily dosage of Bitcoin from X, Telegram, or something similar. If there were no campaigns tomorrow, I would still visit this forum for that purpose. Perhaps I would post less and in a fewer sub-boards. 

2. Would you support the forum to the outsiders, who would rationally wonder: "what on earth do all these people do there everyday?".

I would still recommend Bitcointalk to people who want to learn about Bitcoin with or without me being in a paid signature campaign.

3. Would you be actually interested in this forum's longevity and would you try to stop the scammers if you weren't getting paid?

The forum's longevity depends also on the actions of the forum admins. A few bad decisions could prove costly. Banning signature campaigns would be a mistake and terrible for overall traffic. The natural sequence of events will lead to very few people using forums in general despite what anyone does on them. I hope Bitcointalk as a source of information will be around for as long as possible.   

4. Do you actually know (or use) the website or service that you promote? It's not a trap question, I just want you to think if you'd jump from campaing to campaign simply because of the money, or if there's also a tie with the service that you promote.

I have used and still use some of the services and websites I have advertised in my signature space throughout the years. I am not going to say which ones I have used and which ones I haven't, though. I don't think many people care what they are advertising as long as it's not a scam. But we have also seen that some members (many of them tagged) don't have problems advertising scams either.

[LoyceV]

No, it's per transaction nature. Meaning if I sell 4 paintings in my lifetime, it's considered a business. If I get paid 4 times for advertising, it's considered a business etc.

So kids can't have a lemonade^* stand and sell more than 3 glasses of lemonade^*? I thought my country was bureaucratic!

I don't think many people care what they are advertising as long as it's not a scam.

Check , my (incomplete) signature archive sorted by file size. It nicely summarizes how often some users switch signature campaigns.

^* When I write lemonade, I mean ouzo.

[goldkingcoiner]

1. If you stopped getting paid today, for any reason, would you post with the same zeal that you post today? And more importantly, if you weren't getting paid, would you really need to say all the things that you say when you get paid?

Yeah sure. There are times between signature campaigns when I do not get paid to post and I have about the same number of posts anyway. The payment is nice though.

2. Would you support the forum to the outsiders, who would rationally wonder: "what on earth do all these people do there everyday?".

I do not go around recommending anything but if the topic of Bitcoin/crypto communities comes up, Bitcointalk is definitely better than any social media site like twitter and I would recommend it as such as well.

3. Would you be actually interested in this forum's longevity and would you try to stop the scammers if you weren't getting paid? EDIT: I don't mean getting paid for moderation or tagging scammers, but I mean if you get paid and you need a sustainable payment resource through the forum, you gotta try to keep it safe, don't you?

I do not go actively looking for scammers but when I see something I say something. I do not want my favorite people on my favorite forum to become victims of a scam.

4. Do you actually know (or use) the website or service that you promote? It's not a trap question, I just want you to think if you'd jump from campaing to campaign simply because of the money, or if there's also a tie with the service that you promote.

I gamble, sure. Only when the casino allows my country. For some reason not all casinos allow it even though others do. But I make sure that the service in question has no scam flags or shady dealings associated with it before I advertise for them.

[mole0815]

I can understand your reasoning, apogio. It's a question I've asked myself many times. But I always come to the same conclusion:

My post can be summarized in the following question: "If you weren't getting paid, would you still be around?". My answer to this question is "Yes! I will!".

Yes! I will!

[dkbit98]

At one point, I withdrew from the forum 2 years ago because it simply became too difficult for me to balance private obligations, work obligations, and my activity on the forum.

I remember the moment when you announced that news in our local board, and I can't believe so much times passed since you came back in forum, but I am glad you are back.

Lol. If all you pay is 25%, you have no idea how lucky you are

I heard Netherlands is planning to introduce new annual tax on unrealized bitcoin gains, but that also includes stocks, bonds, and other assets.
It's going to be much ''fun'' living in EU in next few years... maybe new taxes on windows and fresh air are coming next  
https://cryptotale.org/netherlands-plans-annual-tax-on-unrealized-bitcoin-gains/

[LoyceV]

I heard Netherlands is planning to introduce new annual tax on unrealized bitcoin gains, but that also includes stocks, bonds, and other assets.

As if the 2% over total investments per year we pay already isn't enough! Government wants more and more money.
"The poor" get money from government, "the rich" don't have taxable income nor taxable wealth, and this will make sure middle class will not own anything in the long run.
Imagine Bitcoin going up 400% in a year. That means paying 36% tax on 80% of your Bitcoin, basically forcing you to sell 28.8% just to pay your tax for just that year.

I wonder if a physical Bitcoins could be considered "art". You don't pay tax on unrealized gains on art, as long as you have it because you like the art (and not for the investment). If that works on a €100M painting, shouldn't it work on a physical Bitcoin?

[Ultegra134]

Absolutely, in order for it to be declared as investment profit, you need to give a cost basis and show that you have put X amount of money which became Y, so you can be taxed for Y-X profit. But here, it's basically income, so theoretically it's taxed as income and then it's taxed as profit when you sell it.

Kudos to you for trying to be lawful, but it's something that's personally not in my priorities to declare any earnings from signature campaigns. Right now, it seems too much of a hassle to declare it as income for something that's firstly, not permanent (what is honestly though?) and secondly, not a "solid" job, it's a hobby, a part-time hassle that also gets you paid. Some treat is as a job, but that's a different story. Perhaps (and very likely) I'll have to go through it some time in the future, where I'll have to convert to fiat and withdraw, but till then, I prefer to keep a low profile.

[Cryptoprincess101]

Any platform that is not monetized gradually loses engagement from its users with time that is why most social media platforms pays those who create contents and stuffs like that. While we are praising the forum for the privilege to earn while making posts, we should also consider the competition on the internet. That notwithstanding, we should also appreciate the brands that we advertise their signatures in the forum and also the managers because if there were no signature campaigns, there wouldn't be many means of earning here, it would have only be those who sells stuffs in the collectible and the mods who get directly paid by theymos. Just like a saying in my place that 'where there is sugar, ants will gather'. So, there is no one in this forum who wouldn't be happy for enjoying the benefits of earning while engaging in discussions in the forum.
     @apogio, i hope that the legislation in your country become less strict in the near future so that you can have the privilege to earn from the forum again. BTW, i thought that members of the merit cycling club gets paid by foxpup or am i missing something? because i see you are still wearing her avarta.

[Cookdata]

Any platform that is not monetized gradually loses engagement from its users with time that is why most social media platforms pays those who create contents and stuffs like that.

I humbly disagree with this, not in all circumstances. Everyone has their opinion on how they see the forum and I don't take offense for anyone opinion but incentive is killing some platforms that existed before it was introduced. I used to be a very active solo user on Twitter before it became X. You can read good write ups, creative content but the platform is now turned to a garbage platform for AI sloppy contents where everyone now Yap to get shitcoin allocation, my timeline is messed up because everyone now write with AI and want to get fat allocations they will later dump. Head of products on X Nikita came to a conclusion, disabled all the platforms that are using the Api to  reward users.
https://x.com/nikitabier/status/2011825522817270230

Reddit is another good place I used to enjoy, follow many subreddit but the platform introduced moon token one time and everyone was busy writing shitty post because they thought (as some claimed) it's going to be the next Bitcoin.  Everyone was busy posting to get allocation. I didn't know how it went down later but the incentive discouraged me, I don't know if Bitcoin and Bitcoinbeginners are still interesting like it were that time. This is my opinion by the way.

[Cryptoprincess101]

Any platform that is not monetized gradually loses engagement from its users with time that is why most social media platforms pays those who create contents and stuffs like that.

I humbly disagree with this, not in all circumstances. Everyone has their opinion on how they see the forum and I don't take offense for anyone opinion but incentive is killing some platforms that existed before it was introduced.

...

I do not argue that incentive is not killing some platforms, but you should understand that garbage is unavoidable in every platform because as we have those who are contributing immensely towards the growth of a platform, that is how there will also be those who lack the knowledge to make valuable contributions to a forum or platform. Even without the incentives, some platforms if not most of them still experienced generic junks and Ai but just that it wasn't as much as it is now. Since these platforms became monetized, can you compare the traffic from users then and now? I made an expression that 'where there is sugar, ants will gather' which the interpretation means that where there are rewards, many people will go there. Now, i want you to understand that with or without those incentives, low value and low-quality contents will still be there. What made the forum to introduce the merit system? isn't it to minimize low quality posts since merits can only me awarded to posts with quality, does that also have to do with the rewards that comes from the forum?