[ANN][X11][PoS only] NinjaCoin - Ninja Launch - Hard fork 1.2.2

[richiela]

We will be shutting down the market due to the dev fork - the wallet will be open for anyone that wishes to withdraw on the current fork.  Again we WILL not be taking the new wallet or fork.  If you do not understand why, please read the posts above.  There is no way for us to undo things if coins disappear.  These were coins that have already been traded and there is no way to recoup the value gained/loss by them.

@kryptologist - that is a valid suggestion, but I want to re-iterate that we do not police coins. .  There is also no way for us to know if that value changes because the ANN is constantly changing which is why we rely on programmatic approaches like moneysupply.  feel free to PM me to brainstorm about more automated things we can do though, i'm always looking for more ideas.  I understand your concern but the damage was done way before the coin max limit was hit; the order books are not that deep.  It would not have prevented this.

@stenull - I guarantee you if any coin destroys their marketcap and then wants to reactively roll back the blockchain, there isn't an exchange in the world that's going to follow that fork

I do sympathize with people that got scammed by this coin.  We got scammed as well and have our associated costs but this is the unfortunate dark side of crypto currencies.  We rely on the community as much as you guys rely on us to make crypto safer for everyone.

Thanks
Richie

[kryptologist]

Ninja is dead but I just want a simple answer on this:

At the time of adding a new coin on the exchange, you can also add a value in your internal database for the max total supply of coins. You can then use this to detect if there are more coins on the exchange than there should be total supply. If this is detected the market is immediately suspended. It would be a very simple check and could be implemented with little effort. In fact you could check this value with the network and suspend the market even before all those coins got put on the exchange. So I believe Bittrex could have caught this if they had better checks. I am not blaming Bittrex, I am blaming the developer but saying that Bittrex should be able to catch these things.

Such a change would be a good precaution and I think it's likely Bittrex will consider adding it.  However you don't seem to have grasped the concept of max number of total coins yet.  The number of coins in the ANN posting is supposed to match the number of coins the source code will produce.  In most cases that number matches, in this case it didn't because the dev lied about the max number.

So a precautionary check like the one you suggest would be a good idea, but the number stored in the database could get out of date.  A coin could legitimately update their source code to produce more coins than originally intended, and therefore such a precautionary check could halt trading in a legitimate coin.

It's a trade-off that Bittrex will have to decide on, it's not a completely obvious choice to make (although I think they should add it, the trade-off seems highly in favor of it).

I grasp the concept of total supply, I think it's just that producing more coins than total supply is BS in my opinion and I wouldn't support such a coin that "legitimately" did so. I think Bittrex should add such a check and if a coin is going to make a major change like changing total supply the exchanges should be made aware of it in advance anyway.

[coiner5]

This is an unfortunate case where the dev screwed up and/or screwed us all.

We will NOT be taking a fork of this coin.  The damage is already done here.  Our systems worked as designed and our balances match including checking the moneysupply.  I would like to remind everyone that Bittrex is an exchange.  Our responsibility is to ensure that when you trade xxx A for yyy B, that it happens safely.  We do not police what is being traded.

Again, we will not be taking a new wallet or fork of this coin.  The damage done is irreparable and would have been after the first trade.  The market will remain open and we will let this die its natural death like so many coins before it.

Thanks
richie@bittrex

If I understand it clearly, you stay on unofficial blockchain and hold my money on it (even without value). I'm not make any transactions or trade before block 14000. May I request private key of wallet where you keep my money, so I can import them into official fork and make them valid. I know the answer. Should I expect from you same behavior as reaction on any coin fork you listed in future? ..if you decide not update wallet and let trading in wrong one? At least can you provide wallet link of your "new" NinjaTrexCoin so I can withdraw and keep all my original NJAs out of your "exchange" as memento of this trust failure? Could you mark all coin pairs which you are provide to trade and are on unofficial forks, so I can easily recognize them/can't make you rich on fees? Answer to yourself, damage was done.

Good point! Shouldn't exchanges follow the real fork?
What if BC or DRK would to fork?? Would you just stay on broken fork and don't give a fuck?

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but you are assuming the "real" fork is the hard fork released in 1.2.0 and the other fork is "broken".  That is more of an opinion than a fact.  The original client as released was designed to do exactly what it did.  It has been in the wild for days and the chain is much longer than the forked 1.2.0 chain.  Just because most people didn't understand how the original client worked doesn't mean the chain it built is invalid.

If you disagree, imagine everyone switched to the 1.2.0 chain.  But two weeks later the new trojan inserted by the dev into 1.2.0 is discovered and it is realized that he profitted again starting at block 14000.  So now a 1.3.0 forked version is released that resets everything back to block 14000.  But you had bought coins on the 1.2.0 chain.  Which was is the "real" chain now?

Anyway this is my last point in this thread.  Too much time spent on a shitcoin.

[chrissibel]

EVERYONE CHILL. THIS IS NOT BITTREX'S FAULT. BLAME THE SHITTY NINJA COIN DEV!

[Spartan10]

Lol, this is big failure dev team. I'm happy that I don't buy it.

[chrissibel]

JUST MINE KORE INSTEAD hehe

[kryptologist]

We will be shutting down the market due to the dev fork - the wallet will be open for anyone that wishes to withdraw on the current fork.  Again we WILL not be taking the new wallet or fork.  If you do not understand why, please read the posts above.  There is no way for us to undo things if coins disappear.  These were coins that have already been traded and there is no way to recoup the value gained/loss by them.

@kryptologist - that is a valid suggestion, but I want to re-iterate that we do not police coins.  There is also no way for us to know if that value changes because the ANN is constantly changing which is why we rely on programmatic approaches like moneysupply.  feel free to PM me to brainstorm about more automated things we can do though, i'm always looking for more ideas.  I understand your concern but the damage was done way before the coin max limit was hit; the order books are not that deep.  It would not have prevented this.

@stenull - I guarantee you if any coin destroys their marketcap and then wants to reactively roll back the blockchain, there isn't an exchange in the world that's going to follow that fork

I do sympathize with people that got scammed by this coin.  We got scammed as well and have our associated costs but this is the unfortunate dark side of crypto currencies.  We rely on the community as much as you guys rely on us to make crypto safer for everyone.

Thanks
Richie

Do you think it would work to set an internal max total supply variable and check that against the network to catch it early? If a coin developer wants to change total supply it has to be in the open, the exchanges must know about it first? It would prevent ninjas from pulling such moves and I don't see the downside of it.

[whatdidshedo]

JUST MINE KORE INSTEAD hehe

lol, that wallet wont even sync fucks with my total another mess , play responsibly is what i do some you win some you lose

[McNulty]

I know a lot of coin that were on wrong chain with hiccups and still online on bittrex.

Is this coin dead ? NO !
Everything is fxed, people have lost nearly nothing. It was around 14200 or 14400 block until i found the fix an release the fixed source.

NinjaCoin can continue to live !

Must a coin die only because a exchange say us byebye ? NO !
Let bittrex on the wrong chain if they don't want to switch. We can still go on every other exchanges with all the coins from block 1 to 13999.

And p2poolcoin seems to be on the good chain, if some miners can help to move the blochain (at least a little to decrease the diff) it would be nice.

Have you see my nice wallet, i still have a lot of work to do, let's continue ninja story !
Don't let the coin die for a story of 200 or 400 block, that's nothing.

all my NJA (about 110k) earned with mining are on bittrex so it's dead for me...

[bitcoinwonders010]

Some quick facts:

- The moneysupply is decided by the network.  There is no fixed number for Bittrex to compare against.  The moneysupply went up due to the dev's trojan, and if Bittrex checked against the moneysupply they would have been checking against the new huge number, just like everyone else on the network.

- Check the github tree.  The new 1.2.0 release was not submitted as a patch, the entire repo was replaced.  This was certainly intentional to try to make it harder to see what changed.  Both to hide how obvious the original trojan was, and probably to hide the new trojan that was added in 1.2.0.  There is likely no "correct" or "clean" fork, just a choice between two trojanned forks.

- The 1.2.0 release was committed by linked67, not the original dev.  Interesting.  Maybe he forgot to sign out of his real account and into his shill account.

- I lost money on this coin, but I don't blame Bittrex one bit.  They allowed people to buy and sell Ninjacoin, that is their role as an exchange.  Ninjacoin was a shitty trojanned product and there should have been no buyers, but lots of people bought anyway.  It's like blaming NYSE because Enron when bust.  Bittrex didn't force you to buy a shitty coin, they just gave you the opportunity to make a poor decision.  And in this case the source code was even out there for anyone to review and nobody did.

In summary if you bought this coin you bought a coin that was publicly designed to inflate the money supply at block 14000.  Bittrex allowed you to do that.  Congratulations on your purchase, next time you'll be more cautious about what you buy.  I know I will.

I'm not affiliated with Bittrex, just pointing out some facts.  Your hatred should be directed at the dev.

So you have to investigate the code of every coin that you buy? I'd rather trade on Polo and feel secure the code has been reviewed/

trade on polo, what happen when all exchanges got screwed by asiacoin, lol. polo was the one who couldn't read the code for super coin lol lol

[JohnBirco]

This is an unfortunate case where the dev screwed up and/or screwed us all.

We will NOT be taking a fork of this coin.  The damage is already done here.  Our systems worked as designed and our balances match including checking the moneysupply.  I would like to remind everyone that Bittrex is an exchange.  Our responsibility is to ensure that when you trade xxx A for yyy B, that it happens safely.  We do not police what is being traded.

Again, we will not be taking a new wallet or fork of this coin.  The damage done is irreparable and would have been after the first trade.  The market will remain open and we will let this die its natural death like so many coins before it.

Thanks
richie@bittrex

If I understand it clearly, you stay on unofficial blockchain and hold my money on it (even without value). I'm not make any transactions or trade before block 14000. May I request private key of wallet where you keep my money, so I can import them into official fork and make them valid. I know the answer. Should I expect from you same behavior as reaction on any coin fork you listed in future? ..if you decide not update wallet and let trading in wrong one? At least can you provide wallet link of your "new" NinjaTrexCoin so I can withdraw and keep all my original NJAs out of your "exchange" as memento of this trust failure? Could you mark all coin pairs which you are provide to trade and are on unofficial forks, so I can easily recognize them/can't make you rich on fees? Answer to yourself, damage was done.

Good point! Shouldn't exchanges follow the real fork?
What if BC or DRK would to fork?? Would you just stay on broken fork and don't give a fuck?

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but you are assuming the "real" fork is the hard fork released in 1.2.0 and the other fork is "broken".  That is more of an opinion than a fact.  The original client as released was designed to do exactly what it did.  It has been in the wild for days and the chain is much longer than the forked 1.2.0 chain.  Just because most people didn't understand how the original client worked doesn't mean the chain it built is invalid.

If you disagree, imagine everyone switched to the 1.2.0 chain.  But two weeks later the new trojan inserted by the dev into 1.2.0 is discovered and it is realized that he profitted again starting at block 14000.  So now a 1.3.0 forked version is released that resets everything back to block 14000.  But you had bought coins on the 1.2.0 chain.  Which was is the "real" chain now?

Anyway this is my last point in this thread.  Too much time spent on a shitcoin.

You talk about trojan ? Have you proof ?
Take my source code on github and compare it to a X11 PoW/PoS coin. You will see the changes with a sofware like Meld on linux and see there is no trojan.

I have not scammed anyone ! Myself i have buy some of this coins and have never sold any, even on the wrong fork. Take a look on the new wallet, do you think i work on a new wallet to carsh the coin on the same moment ? I should be really stupid to wast my time with a new wallet if i know the coin will crash.

And what are we talking about ? The coin was mined and exchanged for days and for a little 2-3 hours of problem, the coin should be dead ?
Who say the coin is dead ?

Only bittrex has some problem to go on the new fork. I understand the problem they have but the coin should not be dead for this.

I know a lot of coin that were on wrong chain with hiccups and still online on bittrex.

Is this coin dead ? NO !
Everything is fxed, people have lost nearly nothing. It was around 14200 or 14400 block until i found the fix an release the fixed source.

NinjaCoin can continue to live !

Must a coin die only because a exchange say us byebye ? NO !
Let bittrex on the wrong chain if they don't want to switch. We can still go on every other exchanges with all the coins from block 1 to 13999.

And p2poolcoin seems to be on the good chain, if some miners can help to move the blochain (at least a little to decrease the diff) it would be nice.

Have you see my nice wallet, i still have a lot of work to do, let's continue ninja story !
Don't let the coin die for a story of 200 or 400 block, that's nothing.

all my NJA (about 110k) earned with mining are on bittrex so it's dead for me...

Your coins are not lost, they are on the good fork. Bittrex has say they update the wallet to let people withdraw.

[binkshurts]

i could only lol.

[Stenull]

@Richie
Ok understandable. But could perhaps people get the privet key from the wallet so they could access the coins from the new wallet?

[coiner5]

We will be shutting down the market due to the dev fork - the wallet will be open for anyone that wishes to withdraw on the current fork.  Again we WILL not be taking the new wallet or fork.  If you do not understand why, please read the posts above.  There is no way for us to undo things if coins disappear.  These were coins that have already been traded and there is no way to recoup the value gained/loss by them.

@kryptologist - that is a valid suggestion, but I want to re-iterate that we do not police coins.  There is also no way for us to know if that value changes because the ANN is constantly changing which is why we rely on programmatic approaches like moneysupply.  feel free to PM me to brainstorm about more automated things we can do though, i'm always looking for more ideas.  I understand your concern but the damage was done way before the coin max limit was hit; the order books are not that deep.  It would not have prevented this.

@stenull - I guarantee you if any coin destroys their marketcap and then wants to reactively roll back the blockchain, there isn't an exchange in the world that's going to follow that fork

I do sympathize with people that got scammed by this coin.  We got scammed as well and have our associated costs but this is the unfortunate dark side of crypto currencies.  We rely on the community as much as you guys rely on us to make crypto safer for everyone.

Thanks
Richie

Do you think it would work to set an internal max total supply variable and check that against the network to catch it early? If a coin developer wants to change total supply it has to be in the open, the exchanges must know about it first? It would prevent ninjas from pulling such moves and I don't see the downside of it.

Ok, one more post.  The point richiela made about the order book is an important one.  Say the max number of coins in the ANN was 48,000,000.  Typically only a few % of total coins are listed on exchanges.  Even if Bittrex was the only exchange for that coin, they might have only 2,000,000 coins.  So a scam dev could still inflate the moneysupply by 24x before such a precautionary check would notice.

A possible solution would be to alert when more than a certain % of expected total supply is listed.  But that would have to be just an alert for someone to investigate, not something that would stop trading.

[kryptologist]

We will be shutting down the market due to the dev fork - the wallet will be open for anyone that wishes to withdraw on the current fork.  Again we WILL not be taking the new wallet or fork.  If you do not understand why, please read the posts above.  There is no way for us to undo things if coins disappear.  These were coins that have already been traded and there is no way to recoup the value gained/loss by them.

@kryptologist - that is a valid suggestion, but I want to re-iterate that we do not police coins.  There is also no way for us to know if that value changes because the ANN is constantly changing which is why we rely on programmatic approaches like moneysupply.  feel free to PM me to brainstorm about more automated things we can do though, i'm always looking for more ideas.  I understand your concern but the damage was done way before the coin max limit was hit; the order books are not that deep.  It would not have prevented this.

@stenull - I guarantee you if any coin destroys their marketcap and then wants to reactively roll back the blockchain, there isn't an exchange in the world that's going to follow that fork

I do sympathize with people that got scammed by this coin.  We got scammed as well and have our associated costs but this is the unfortunate dark side of crypto currencies.  We rely on the community as much as you guys rely on us to make crypto safer for everyone.

Thanks
Richie

Do you think it would work to set an internal max total supply variable and check that against the network to catch it early? If a coin developer wants to change total supply it has to be in the open, the exchanges must know about it first? It would prevent ninjas from pulling such moves and I don't see the downside of it.

Ok, one more post.  The point richiela made about the order book is an important one.  Say the max number of coins in the ANN was 48,000,000.  Typically only a few % of total coins are listed on exchanges.  Even if Bittrex was the only exchange for that coin, they might have only 2,000,000 coins.  So a scam dev could still inflate the moneysupply by 24x before such a precautionary check would notice.

A possible solution would be to alert when more than a certain % of expected total supply is listed.  But that would have to be just an alert for someone to investigate, not something that would stop trading.

But I thought you could check the network.. not just what is listed on the exchange. Can't you detect how many coins are currently in circulation for any coin regardless of what's on the exchange? If there are more coins than Bittrex is aware about, I think they should suspend the market immediately.

[richiela]

We will be shutting down the market due to the dev fork - the wallet will be open for anyone that wishes to withdraw on the current fork.  Again we WILL not be taking the new wallet or fork.  If you do not understand why, please read the posts above.  There is no way for us to undo things if coins disappear.  These were coins that have already been traded and there is no way to recoup the value gained/loss by them.

@kryptologist - that is a valid suggestion, but I want to re-iterate that we do not police coins.  There is also no way for us to know if that value changes because the ANN is constantly changing which is why we rely on programmatic approaches like moneysupply.  feel free to PM me to brainstorm about more automated things we can do though, i'm always looking for more ideas.  I understand your concern but the damage was done way before the coin max limit was hit; the order books are not that deep.  It would not have prevented this.

@stenull - I guarantee you if any coin destroys their marketcap and then wants to reactively roll back the blockchain, there isn't an exchange in the world that's going to follow that fork

I do sympathize with people that got scammed by this coin.  We got scammed as well and have our associated costs but this is the unfortunate dark side of crypto currencies.  We rely on the community as much as you guys rely on us to make crypto safer for everyone.

Thanks
Richie

Do you think it would work to set an internal max total supply variable and check that against the network to catch it early? If a coin developer wants to change total supply it has to be in the open, the exchanges must know about it first? It would prevent ninjas from pulling such moves and I don't see the downside of it.

Do you think devs even consistently tell us when they update their wallets?

We've experimented with multiple checks similar to what you suggest, but unfortunately they all have systemic flaws.  If someone knows about this check (which we can now assume they do since we're talking about it) then the first block of mined coins can be deposited below the threshold and destroy the entire market before anything is tripped.  

We have systems in place to protect the system, our customers, and their coins but we cannot definitively protect you from a malicious or complacent dev and their wallet.  There are too many ways to hide in the code.

[richiela]

@Richie
Ok understandable. But could perhaps people get the privet key from the wallet so they could access the coins from the new wallet?

That's not how wallets work.  Your coins don't just stay in one address.  They get moved around the wallet as things get withdrawn etc...

[kryptologist]

We will be shutting down the market due to the dev fork - the wallet will be open for anyone that wishes to withdraw on the current fork.  Again we WILL not be taking the new wallet or fork.  If you do not understand why, please read the posts above.  There is no way for us to undo things if coins disappear.  These were coins that have already been traded and there is no way to recoup the value gained/loss by them.

@kryptologist - that is a valid suggestion, but I want to re-iterate that we do not police coins.  There is also no way for us to know if that value changes because the ANN is constantly changing which is why we rely on programmatic approaches like moneysupply.  feel free to PM me to brainstorm about more automated things we can do though, i'm always looking for more ideas.  I understand your concern but the damage was done way before the coin max limit was hit; the order books are not that deep.  It would not have prevented this.

@stenull - I guarantee you if any coin destroys their marketcap and then wants to reactively roll back the blockchain, there isn't an exchange in the world that's going to follow that fork

I do sympathize with people that got scammed by this coin.  We got scammed as well and have our associated costs but this is the unfortunate dark side of crypto currencies.  We rely on the community as much as you guys rely on us to make crypto safer for everyone.

Thanks
Richie

Do you think it would work to set an internal max total supply variable and check that against the network to catch it early? If a coin developer wants to change total supply it has to be in the open, the exchanges must know about it first? It would prevent ninjas from pulling such moves and I don't see the downside of it.

Do you think devs even consistently tell us when they update their wallets?

We've experimented with multiple checks similar to what you suggest, but unfortunately they all have systemic flaws.  If someone knows about this check (which we can now assume they do since we're talking about it then the first block of mined coins can be deposited below the threshold and destroy the entire market before anything is tripped.  

We have systems in place to protect the system, our customers, and their coins but we cannot definitively protect you from a malicious or complacent dev and their wallet.  There are too many ways to hide in the code.

What do you mean if someone knows about this check? Of course everyone should know about it?  If there are more coins in circulation than Bittrex is aware about, I think they should suspend the market immediately until the dev can clear things up.

[rudolsen]

@Richie
Ok understandable. But could perhaps people get the privet key from the wallet so they could access the coins from the new wallet?

That's not how wallets work.  Your coins don't just stay in one address.  They get moved around the wallet as things get withdrawn etc...

This is why "I know the answer" from my post and will be a lot of work for you take all yours NJA wallets (how many 2,4?) and import them to actual fork. "Dev" made mistake, you are exchange, we are nothing. Not blaming anyone and as allways, this is a lesson for everyone. (Hope you can develop something like STOP trade button/ALERT banner for members of dev team and make your hands more clean in situation like this)

[linked67]

P2PoolCoin.com
P2pool node for NinjaCoin

EU server: http://p2poolcoin.com:12500
Canada Server: http://ca.p2poolcoin.com:12500

Dedicated server
Xeon cpu
32Go ram
SSD
1Gbps

Fee: 1% ONLY !!!!

Wallet updated to the hard fork, don't let the coin die !!!!

Blockchain is moving, my p2pool find a lot of blocks on the good fork !