HASHNEST Discussion and Support Thread

[chunkyjunkie]

*After enabling the Auto-Rebuy feature, your mining revenue and profit payments will be used to automatically and incrementally purchase more PACMiC hashrate.
When you disable the feature, mining revenue and profit payments will continue accumulating inside your account balance as usual.

Taken from their website, sounds like the value of your PACMiC will increase when you have a payout, thereby reinvesting profits.  Not sure how often "incrementally" is, but def interested to find out!  Great new feature, only 1 more confirm to see what is going to happen.

Ok here is my experience.

We found a block and my " additional principal " increased.

Also my " Unpaid " increased

So from the unpaid increasing it does in fact sound like it increased your actual PACMIC holdings.

But it is still early.  Will be nice to hear from Rob or Janet when they get on.

Edit - I don't see any other way it could be working.  Because what if I turned it on but then later decided to turn it off?  They would need to credit that btc back to my wallet.
From what I see it does actually incrementally buy actual additional fractions of PACMIC every block that is paid out which is a very nice feature.

yes agreed, but I am curious if I am getting more hash power, or if my principle is only increasing?  If I am not getting any extra hashpower out of the deal, I might as well just hold my payouts for a few days, then buy a new PACMiC.

Also, it shows my profit as 0, but it should still show a profit number I think.  this is purely cosmetic as I still am getting profit, but I think it should still show it.

EDIT: If my hashpower is not increasing with each block, then all I am effectively doing is betting that when it is not profitable to run anymore will be further down the line than the current estimate.

I guess we wait and see what Janet or rob say about how it works later.

You make a very good point though is it that our hashrate increases or are we just extending the time in which our current amount of pacmic are active by increasing our principal that it needs to pay off before the contract ends.

Again, good question you have... hope Janet or Rob can answer when they get on.

Edit - ahh with the 2nd block the actual hashrate did increase like you said above.  Very nice!

[chunkyjunkie]

I am tempted to buy more btc now from coinbase to get more pacmic

[chunkyjunkie]

Looking at the second block now, the hashrate does increase.  This was a great feature to add and one that will keep me using the service.  Going to have to do some math now to redetermine my calculations on the profitability of this.

EDIT:  On second look, it only looks like the hashrate was increased by the amount paid back and not by the profit and amount paid back.  Is there some reason why the entire amount hasn't gone back into hashrate increase?

You are better at this then I am, good catch!

Let us know what you find out please or if Janet or Rob can answer...

[DebitMe]

Looking at the second block now, the hashrate does increase.  This was a great feature to add and one that will keep me using the service.  Going to have to do some math now to redetermine my calculations on the profitability of this.

EDIT:  On second look, it only looks like the hashrate was increased by the amount paid back and not by the profit and amount paid back.  Is there some reason why the entire amount hasn't gone back into hashrate increase?

You are better at this then I am, good catch!

Let us know what you find out please or if Janet or Rob can answer...

Actually, I think I was wrong on that one (and deleted it from my post above).  The hashrate increase was done correctly and has the paid back and profit in it. 

[DebitMe]

Ok, I think I have this figured out.

When a block is found, we get a payout based on the hashrate.  The formula is used to determine our profit, which goes to increasing the amount they have left to pay us out.  The rest goes toward buying more hashrate.

This doesn't seem right to me though, as I believe the amount that goes to buying more hashrate should also go to increasing the unpaid principal amount.

When you buy 1 PACMiC for 1 bitcoin, you get 1 TH/s of power and a contract to pay back 1 btc.  If I get half of that back and buy another contract, I get 500 GH/s of power and a contract to pay back .5 btc.  So why, when I am doing fractions of that, am I actually losing bitcoins?  If I have 70000 satoshi's, I should get .7 of a GH/s and a contract to pay back 70000 satoshi's.  But, where it is right now, I am getting a contract of X GH/s and Y amount that needs to be paid back.

[chunkyjunkie]

Ok, I think I have this figured out.

When a block is found, we get a payout based on the hashrate.  The formula is used to determine our profit, which goes to increasing the amount they have left to pay us out.  The rest goes toward buying more hashrate.

This doesn't seem right to me though, as I believe the amount that goes to buying more hashrate should also go to increasing the unpaid principal amount.

When you buy 1 PACMiC for 1 bitcoin, you get 1 TH/s of power and a contract to pay back 1 btc.  If I get half of that back and buy another contract, I get 500 GH/s of power and a contract to pay back .5 btc.  So why, when I am doing fractions of that, am I actually losing bitcoins?  If I have 70000 satoshi's, I should get .7 of a GH/s and a contract to pay back 70000 satoshi's.  But, where it is right now, I am getting a contract of X GH/s and Y amount that needs to be paid back.

I am lost

But in looking at it would it make sense since both our hashrate AND our unpaid balance both increase? We are in effect getting more hashing power with each block as well as increasing our unpaid ( duration of contract ).

[KSGuy]

Is this cloud mining worth looking at?
 I have a buddy that despite me telling him it's a bad idea, wants to try out cloud mining.

[DebitMe]

Ok, I think I have this figured out.

When a block is found, we get a payout based on the hashrate.  The formula is used to determine our profit, which goes to increasing the amount they have left to pay us out.  The rest goes toward buying more hashrate.

This doesn't seem right to me though, as I believe the amount that goes to buying more hashrate should also go to increasing the unpaid principal amount.

When you buy 1 PACMiC for 1 bitcoin, you get 1 TH/s of power and a contract to pay back 1 btc.  If I get half of that back and buy another contract, I get 500 GH/s of power and a contract to pay back .5 btc.  So why, when I am doing fractions of that, am I actually losing bitcoins?  If I have 70000 satoshi's, I should get .7 of a GH/s and a contract to pay back 70000 satoshi's.  But, where it is right now, I am getting a contract of X GH/s and Y amount that needs to be paid back.

I am lost

But in looking at it would it make sense since both our hashrate AND our unpaid balance both increase? We are in effect getting more hashing power with each block as well as increasing our unpaid ( duration of contract ).

Man too bad these are one of the most confusing things in bitcoin land. lol.  In thinking about it again, I think it is actually right.  We should only have our principal increasing by the profit amount.  If they were to add in the payback amount, it would effectively be doubling our investments for us.  I think everything is working out the way it is supposed to now.

Will keep watching and thinking it through, but it looks to be right.

[chunkyjunkie]

Ok, I think I have this figured out.

When a block is found, we get a payout based on the hashrate.  The formula is used to determine our profit, which goes to increasing the amount they have left to pay us out.  The rest goes toward buying more hashrate.

This doesn't seem right to me though, as I believe the amount that goes to buying more hashrate should also go to increasing the unpaid principal amount.

When you buy 1 PACMiC for 1 bitcoin, you get 1 TH/s of power and a contract to pay back 1 btc.  If I get half of that back and buy another contract, I get 500 GH/s of power and a contract to pay back .5 btc.  So why, when I am doing fractions of that, am I actually losing bitcoins?  If I have 70000 satoshi's, I should get .7 of a GH/s and a contract to pay back 70000 satoshi's.  But, where it is right now, I am getting a contract of X GH/s and Y amount that needs to be paid back.

I am lost

But in looking at it would it make sense since both our hashrate AND our unpaid balance both increase? We are in effect getting more hashing power with each block as well as increasing our unpaid ( duration of contract ).

Man too bad these are one of the most confusing things in bitcoin land. lol.  In thinking about it again, I think it is actually right.  We should only have our principal increasing by the profit amount.  If they were to add in the payback amount, it would effectively be doubling our investments for us.  I think everything is working out the way it is supposed to now.

Will keep watching and thinking it through, but it looks to be right.

Lol k yep very confusing.. thanks for sharing your efforts.

[DebitMe]

Something I am not able to find, how many watts are said to be used for each PACMiC in determining how long it stays on for?

[chunkyjunkie]

Something I am not able to find, how many watts are said to be used for each PACMiC in determining how long it stays on for?

From my understanding they are the equiv of an s5.  I believe that is what I read.

[ajw7989]

Something I am not able to find, how many watts are said to be used for each PACMiC in determining how long it stays on for?

From my understanding they are the equiv of an s5.  I believe that is what I read.

It is the S5 without maintenance fees however they self terminate after you recoup profit and your initial investment back

[DebitMe]

Something I am not able to find, how many watts are said to be used for each PACMiC in determining how long it stays on for?

From my understanding they are the equiv of an s5.  I believe that is what I read.

Right, but we are not getting the same hashrate as an S5, so I am wondering if it is based off of 590 watts of power (.51 watts per GH/S), or scaled down to the amount of hash we actually get, which at .51 watts per GH/s, would be 510 watts.

[chunkyjunkie]

Something I am not able to find, how many watts are said to be used for each PACMiC in determining how long it stays on for?

From my understanding they are the equiv of an s5.  I believe that is what I read.

Right, but we are not getting the same hashrate as an S5, so I am wondering if it is based off of 590 watts of power (.51 watts per GH/S), or scaled down to the amount of hash we actually get, which at .51 watts per GH/s, would be 510 watts.

I don't fully understand how it works so I turned it off.

Thinking about it this way......

Yes, the hashrate increased which you would think is good but your PACMIC expires when your unpaid balance reaches zero.  So yes, your Hash rate increases which just pays you back faster and gets your unpaid balance to zero faster right?  So thinking about it it didn't feel right to me.

For example 5 blocks found with auto rebuy turned on increased my unpaid balance by far less then it decreased my unpaid balance with it turned off for 5 blocks.

Like I said when it was turned on I increases my hashing obviously ( which means I get paid back more/decreases my unpaid balance faster )  Still there are so many factors it just wasn't obvious for me.

I need to think about it more...

[ajw7989]

Something I am not able to find, how many watts are said to be used for each PACMiC in determining how long it stays on for?

From my understanding they are the equiv of an s5.  I believe that is what I read.

Right, but we are not getting the same hashrate as an S5, so I am wondering if it is based off of 590 watts of power (.51 watts per GH/S), or scaled down to the amount of hash we actually get, which at .51 watts per GH/s, would be 510 watts.

Why would it matter? There is no maintenance fee so electricity doesnt matter either. Its PPS based on ideal amounts.

[DebitMe]

Something I am not able to find, how many watts are said to be used for each PACMiC in determining how long it stays on for?

From my understanding they are the equiv of an s5.  I believe that is what I read.

Right, but we are not getting the same hashrate as an S5, so I am wondering if it is based off of 590 watts of power (.51 watts per GH/S), or scaled down to the amount of hash we actually get, which at .51 watts per GH/s, would be 510 watts.

Why would it matter? There is no maintenance fee so electricity doesnt matter either. Its PPS based on ideal amounts.

It matters because it's used in the calculation for when the contract expires. It either expires when your balance hits zero or the maintenence fees are too high. So if you turn on reinvesting, you need to know all the factors otherwise it is impossible to predict when to turn off the reinvest and let it pay you back.

I am on my phone, I will respond to chunky more later and explain this a little better as well.

EDIT:  It matters for a couple of reasons, and they don't necessarily pertain to the auto reinvest feature.  If I were to buy a new contract, I would need to know if the contract is going to pay me back before it becomes not profitable to run (as my contract terminates in this instance).  If I think, that it will continue to be profitable to run for another 200 days, and I believe I will get paid back in 120 days, then obviously it is a smart investment.  If I believe it will become unprofitable to run before I get paid back, then it would not be a smart investment.  To determine how long it remains profitable, a need to know the power consumption is vital.  You can play with the numbers here...
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator
Put in a 5% increase, electricity price of .098, no pool fee, hash rate at 1 TH/s, and the rest zero.  Now put in a power in watts of 590 and 510.  You see that the unit remains profitable to run for about 236 days with 590 watts and 277 with 510 watts.  That is over 40 days difference, just for 80 watts of power.  Now this becomes even more important with the auto invest feature as my contract basically doesn't start until I turn off the feature.  So by finding the point where the days out it would take to pay me back and the days out until it is no longer profitable is the day I should switch off the auto invest.  Obviously, 80 watts of power can make a big difference (almost a month and a half), so for accurate calculations the power used to figure out the profitability is actually very important.

[DebitMe]

Something I am not able to find, how many watts are said to be used for each PACMiC in determining how long it stays on for?

From my understanding they are the equiv of an s5.  I believe that is what I read.

Right, but we are not getting the same hashrate as an S5, so I am wondering if it is based off of 590 watts of power (.51 watts per GH/S), or scaled down to the amount of hash we actually get, which at .51 watts per GH/s, would be 510 watts.

I don't fully understand how it works so I turned it off.

Thinking about it this way......

Yes, the hashrate increased which you would think is good but your PACMIC expires when your unpaid balance reaches zero.  So yes, your Hash rate increases which just pays you back faster and gets your unpaid balance to zero faster right?  So thinking about it it didn't feel right to me.

For example 5 blocks found with auto rebuy turned on increased my unpaid balance by far less then it decreased my unpaid balance with it turned off for 5 blocks.

Like I said when it was turned on I increases my hashing obviously ( which means I get paid back more/decreases my unpaid balance faster )  Still there are so many factors it just wasn't obvious for me.

I need to think about it more...

Hey man, I will try to explain this to help you out, but I think the way it is working right now is correct.  Forgive me if this gets really confusing.

Ok, first you buy 1 TH/s for 1 bitcoin and are supposed to get paid back 1 bitcoin.  Cool, the contract takes 120 days, you get your 1 btc back, plus some profit, lets say that ends up being .1 btc to make it easy.  So now you have 1.1 bitcoins and can buy another contract for 1 TH/s for 1 btc.  No problem, nice and easy to follow, now lets add in the rebuy option.

I buy 1 TH/s for 1 bitcoin and am supposed to get paid back 1 bitcoin.  After 120 days of reinvesting my profit, my contract now hashes at 1.5 TH/s and I am owed 1.1 btc (it would obviously be more due to compounding interest and all, but for the sake of explanation lets assume).  If each block found were to add the total amount and the principal together, I would now be owed 2.1 btc, which obviously isn't right.  Another way to think about it is...
I buy 1 TH/s for 1 bitcoin.  The first block is solved and I am awarded 50,000 satoshi's, of which 10,000 is profit.  I am paid and my contract is decreased by the 40,000 that goes towards principal, leaving my unpaid balance at .99960000, but I now have 50,000 satoshi's in my wallet.  I now buy another contract for 50,000 satoshi's, which is supposed to pay me back 50,000 satoshi's plus profit.  Adding that into my other contract, I now have a contract hashing at 1.00050000, but they only owe me 1.00010000.

I hope that helps, please let me know if there are any questions.

[BITMAIN_Janet]

Hello,
I am online, time diference is a problem ..
Very appreciated the efforts from you and chunkyjunkie. I am looking at your questions and answering them soon.

Something I am not able to find, how many watts are said to be used for each PACMiC in determining how long it stays on for?

PACMiC is runnig backed by S5 (1155Gh/s, 590W), which is indicated in the 'PACMIC Terms of Service'

Contract Suspension

If after 120 days, a PACMiC has still not recovered the initial capital for its user, and is not mining enough revenue to pay for its own electricity cost (fixed at 0.098 USD per kWh, calculated using an ideal AntMiner S5 hashing at 100% uptime per PPS payout), whether because of difficulty increase or BTC price decrease, the PACMiC will continue paying out for ten days as though it were running, even if the machine is turned off. If these conditions persist for ten continuous days, the contract will be considered temporarily suspended. During the suspension period, mining revenues and profit payments will also be temporarily stopped. If after the suspension period, difficulty has dropped or bitcoin price has risen, making mining possible again, the contract will be reinstated and pick up where it left off.

[chunkyjunkie]

I think I am set

Thanks Bitmain_Janet

And thank you DebitMe, appreciate your time!

[BITMAIN_Janet]

I buy 1 TH/s for 1 bitcoin.  The first block is solved and I am awarded 50,000 satoshi's, of which 10,000 is profit.  I am paid and my contract is decreased by the 40,000 that goes towards principal, leaving my unpaid balance at .99960000, but I now have 50,000 satoshi's in my wallet.  I now buy another contract for 50,000 satoshi's, which is supposed to pay me back 50,000 satoshi's plus profit.  Adding that into my other contract, I now have a contract hashing at 1.00050000, but they only owe me 1.00010000.

Hi DebitMe,
Excellent answer, you know how PACMiC works very well  

When your contract hashing at  1.00050000TH/s, but your cost/capital is 1.00010000BTC. Mining revenue per PPLNS payout is increasing along with your reinvest, so daily profit and and paid back are increasing too.

Some day, if you disable 'rebuy', Duration of ROI is further speeding up due to the only increasing of hashing power.