Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[bobsag3]

I'm going to swipe bobsag3's response and respond...

Depends on what you call "under performing."  My module would run for almost exactly 30 minutes at 70 Gh/s and then shut the machine down.  Period.  Had to power off and back on to get the Jupiter to come back up.  30 minutes later, dead again.  I isolated the problem to one particular module, even swapped it into another machine - 30 minutes later, machine dead.  Running the module by itself - 70-80 Gh/s, and machine dead after 31 minutes.  Tried every version of firmware - same result, module would run for 30 minutes about, then kill the machine it was in.  Every time.  Every version.  Every machine.

I couldn't seem to get the point across to customer service that the module would run for almost exactly 30 minutes, and then kill the machine it was running on.  I spent a week trying to explain the problem, then finally got fed up with it and "strongly requested an RMA" after playing "what happens if" games for a week and a day.  Returned the module, and it has disappeared - no acknowledgement of it arriving, no status, no return shipping info TWO WEEKS after the tracking number shows it was in their hands.

That is unfortunate,

I'm sure you've tried to reach out to them and they can't find it?

Send Bitcoinorama a PM and see if he might be able to look into it, also email sam directly as I'm positive he would want to remedy something like this asap as I imagine this isn't how they would like to do business.

Both Bob and I have been thru the process (I was hosting this particular box).
KnC's emails were at best unhelpful, worst downright insulting in their language, and manner. If I wrote one of those emails in my T1 tech support days, I would have been fired on the spot.

And I even paid for UPS Express Plus w/ insurance, so Not only is Bob out almost 3 weeks of hashing, We have actually lost additional money.

[-Redacted-]

Hi,
 
Please write in large writing on the box RMA 131029-12 and send the board back to the following address:
KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden
We will review the cause of the issue and get back to you as soon as possible with the new board.
 
Thanks
Emilia
 

[timmmers]

The plain truth for most people is that without the current rise in the price of bitcoins we'd be crying. KNC will be doing well off that too, both from orders paid in BTC and from their own mining. They can't seem to lose...even fucking shipping made them a profit ffs.  

What is your problem man, they are the fucking company selling the shovels.

Why would you want them to lose, why would you assume they would lose after delivery, what do you not understand about this situation.

All ASIC Vendors that have a product to actually sell (And some that don't) Will Win regardless if miners do or not.

are you are suggesting KnC shouldn't get a profit even though they delivered around 70% of the BTC Hashrate?

How about them not delivering late, maybe taking a reasonable attitude to customers returning faulty product, and maybe considering lessening their fucking profit so that the machines were capable of breaking even? How much did a Jup drop in price for November ? Assuming they are making a profit on the Nov price, the Oct delivery rigs were over priced (and funded from the get go by the customers taking the fucking risk who they no longer are keen to talk to).

To see what they say it's all a marvel and they are wonderful benefactors. The reality is not thus. For example, that documentary would have to be renamed "Starving to death on bitcoin because my rig is 2 weeks late" ..of course, their free promotional rig got there long before paying customers all got theirs.

My problem is disliking misleading statements by companies that may entice new people if the truth isn't out there.

Did I mention that you're an irritating dick too? Better had just to be sure

[Bitcoinorama]

Hi,
 
Please write in large writing on the box RMA 131029-12 and send the board back to the following address:
KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden
We will review the cause of the issue and get back to you as soon as possible with the new board.
 
Thanks
Emilia
 

Your return arrived today, was processed and repaired today, and left here by courier today.

In and out the same day.

That two week stuff is nonsense, you weren't even issued the RMA until the 29/10/13 (last Friday) it's in the RMA code itself.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I have to second that.  It took me over a week of playing the game of "answering stupid questions one per day" before I finally managed to get an RMA-number.  Now that I've returned the defective module to them, I've heard nothing - zip - zero for another almost two weeks.

That is why advanced replacement w/ security deposit (CC, bank wire, bitcoin) is the only viable option.  Hopefully if KNC wants to keep playing dumb and pretending it can't be done other comeptitors will see an oppertunity to provide a better service.

As for bar, please don't make yourself look silly providing really weak and easily countered excuses you come up with off the top of your head.   There is nothing to "game".  A customer could not order and claim to or they could order and claim they never got the product.  OH NOES ordering stuff can be gamed I guess KNC will stop selling products.  KNC deals with the "risk" of being gamed on orders but can't on RMA.

What is the difference between an order and a RMA?  Simple the first one makes you money.  There is nothing more complicated about a "company ship first" RMA than a "customer ship first RMA" other than securing a deposit to ensure the customer returns the defective unit.

[Bitcoinorama]

I have to second that.  It took me over a week of playing the game of "answering stupid questions one per day" before I finally managed to get an RMA-number.  Now that I've returned the defective module to them, I've heard nothing - zip - zero for another almost two weeks.

That is why advanced replacement w/ security deposit (CC, bank wire, bitcoin) is the only viable option.  Hopefully if KNC wants to keep playing dumb and pretending it can't be done other comeptitors will see an oppertunity to provide a better service.

As for bar, please don't make yourself look silly providing really weak and easily countered excuses you come up with off the top of your head.   There is nothing to "game".  A customer could not order and claim to or they could order and claim they never got the product.  OH NOES ordering stuff can be gamed I guess KNC will stop selling products.  KNC deals with the "risk" of being gamed on orders but can't on RMA.

What is the difference between an order and a RMA?  Simple the first one makes you money.  There is nothing more complicated about a "company ship first" RMA than a "customer ship first RMA" other than securing a deposit to ensure the customer returns the defective unit.

It's a standard back to base warranty.

What your suggesting is a total ball-ache.

You then need to block trace every payment, which become entirely more convoluted and confusing for customer service.

Keep it simple. Ship it, can you fix it?  or is it something more involved? in which case ship a replacement - get it out the door as soon as poss.

If Redacted wants to share his original tracking code, and is happy with us sharing the return code - you'll see for yourself - turn around the same day.

[Paladin69]

'orama,

Can you ask Sam to make a better deal for November orders?

$7K @ a diff of 148m was acceptable.

$5K @ a diff of 600-700m by the time they arrive is simply not a good deal at all.  Buy two get one free perhaps to avoid the hassle of refunds?

[Bargraphics]

As for bar, please don't make yourself look silly providing really weak and easily countered excuses you come up with off the top of your head.   There is nothing to "game".  A customer could not order and claim to or they could order and claim they never got the product.  OH NOES ordering stuff can be gamed I guess KNC will stop selling products.  KNC deals with the "risk" of being gamed on orders but can't on RMA.

Relax, I understand you are under a lot of pressure with Hashfast currently no need to take it out on me.

If someone calls in and asks for an advanced RMA and doesn't return their "Broke One" (Which for this scenario it isn't broke) then they now have an extra module and effectively skipped the lines. Worse yet, they actually took a working module away from someone that needed an RMA (I assume they don't have many modules just floating around).

[-Redacted-]

Hi,
 
Please write in large writing on the box RMA 131029-12 and send the board back to the following address:
KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden
We will review the cause of the issue and get back to you as soon as possible with the new board.
 
Thanks
Emilia
 

Your return arrived today, was processed and repaired today, and left here by courier today.

In and out the same day.

That two week stuff is nonsense, you weren't even issued the RMA until the 29/10/13 (last Friday) it's in the RMA code itself.

Well I guess I got my dates mixed up in that email chain of back-and-forth.  Somebody else's calendar is mixed up, however, because Last Friday was November 1st, so it's been 10 days, rather than the 14 in "two weeks"(tm).

Thanks for the info about the RMA.

EDIT:

Thanks again.  We now found that while we paid for UPS next day express shipping, it was in fact shipped "saver".   We'll be having a conversation with UPS about a refund for the difference.  

So, my apologies, this turns out to be a UPS shipping issue, rather than a KnC delay....

[CYPER]

I understand that you don't want to lose money while it is being RMA'd and they should as a company send some sort of compensation per Board that is sent back in based on current difficulty. This will be the only part that I agree with.

Thank you. For a moment I was made to think I am crazy among sane to expect no downtime with such equipment.

BFSB did advance RMA for me, in exchange for a bitcoin deposit. Went flawless, for both. This isn't a big thing to do, but extraordinary well received by customers, especially in the time-critical ASIC-Business.

To cherish the idea of bitcoin and one of its main advantages, fast transfer of values, it would be an easy win for both KNC and their customers to establish a comfortable RMA process.

RMA request -> bitcoin deposit -> delivery of replacement item -> return of faulty item -> reception and verification -> release deposit.

win-win, easy-easy

It makes you wonder how a company whose business revolves around Bitcoin, refuses to use Bitcoin as a security in order to minimize customer's downtime.

It's a standard back to base warranty.

What your suggesting is a total ball-ache.

You then need to block trace every payment, which become entirely more convoluted and confusing for customer service.

Keep it simple. Ship it, can you fix it?  or is it something more involved? in which case ship a replacement - get it out the door as soon as poss.

If Redacted wants to share his original tracking code, and is happy with us sharing the return code - you'll see for yourself - turn around the same day.

You make it sound like the most complicated thing in the world, when in fact it is a trivial job when you pay enough people to do it.
But like I said: if you don't want to do something you make excuses.

[xyzzy099]

As for bar, please don't make yourself look silly providing really weak and easily countered excuses you come up with off the top of your head.   There is nothing to "game".  A customer could not order and claim to or they could order and claim they never got the product.  OH NOES ordering stuff can be gamed I guess KNC will stop selling products.  KNC deals with the "risk" of being gamed on orders but can't on RMA.

If I recall correctly, the 'game' that KnC was supposed to be avoiding was this:  Say you have a Saturn, and want to upgrade it to a Jupiter.  You could complain to KnC that both the boards in your Saturn are underperforming to the point that they deserve a replacement (or are just broken).  They ship you two replacement boards immediately after you send your "security payment".  Then you just keep the boards, thereby bypassing any queue waiting on upgrades (or avoid the total nonexistence of such, as of this writing).

I am not trying to justify KnC's RMA practices - I feel sure they ought to be able to find a way to work around this 'gaming'...  I'm just pointing out what I think the game is that they are trying to avoid.

[bobsag3]

Hi,
 
Please write in large writing on the box RMA 131029-12 and send the board back to the following address:
KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden
We will review the cause of the issue and get back to you as soon as possible with the new board.
 
Thanks
Emilia
 

Your return arrived today, was processed and repaired today, and left here by courier today.

In and out the same day.

That two week stuff is nonsense, you weren't even issued the RMA until the 29/10/13 (last Friday) it's in the RMA code itself.

It looks like KnC should have gotten it last Friday, but UPS royally fucked up the address somehow. [Even though I handed the store the email from KnC, and they packed+shipped it]
https://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/track?HTMLVersion=5.0&loc=en_US&Requester=UPSHome&WBPM_lid=homepage%2Fct1.html_pnl_trk&trackNums=46808822179%0D%0A&track.x=Track

I owe you an apology for that.
But as far as the time line goes, it still took a week to get the rma number... CS just kept delaying it.

EDIT:
I got just off the phone with UPS. Not only was the address provided in the RMA email wrong (according to UPS), but it still has not been delivered and is scheduled for tomorrow.... meaning either you or UPS is lying. The tracking would indicate UPS is right... and at least my UPS Account Rep has the decency to get back to me in a timely manner.

[CYPER]

As for bar, please don't make yourself look silly providing really weak and easily countered excuses you come up with off the top of your head.   There is nothing to "game".  A customer could not order and claim to or they could order and claim they never got the product.  OH NOES ordering stuff can be gamed I guess KNC will stop selling products.  KNC deals with the "risk" of being gamed on orders but can't on RMA.

If I recall correctly, the 'game' that KnC was supposed to be avoiding was this:  Say you have a Saturn, and want to upgrade it to a Jupiter.  You could complain to KnC that both the boards in your Saturn are underperforming to the point that they deserve a replacement (or are just broken).  They ship you two replacement boards immediately after you send your "security payment".  Then you just keep the boards, thereby bypassing any queue waiting on upgrades (or avoid the total nonexistence of such, as of this writing).

I am not trying to justify KnC's RMA practices - I feel sure they ought to be able to find a way to work around this 'gaming'...  I'm just pointing out what I think the game is that they are trying to avoid.

Then they can request more BTC than these boards are worth. I was willing to send them even 30BTC for an advanced replacement, but they just refused it.

[xyzzy099]

As for bar, please don't make yourself look silly providing really weak and easily countered excuses you come up with off the top of your head.   There is nothing to "game".  A customer could not order and claim to or they could order and claim they never got the product.  OH NOES ordering stuff can be gamed I guess KNC will stop selling products.  KNC deals with the "risk" of being gamed on orders but can't on RMA.

If I recall correctly, the 'game' that KnC was supposed to be avoiding was this:  Say you have a Saturn, and want to upgrade it to a Jupiter.  You could complain to KnC that both the boards in your Saturn are underperforming to the point that they deserve a replacement (or are just broken).  They ship you two replacement boards immediately after you send your "security payment".  Then you just keep the boards, thereby bypassing any queue waiting on upgrades (or avoid the total nonexistence of such, as of this writing).

I am not trying to justify KnC's RMA practices - I feel sure they ought to be able to find a way to work around this 'gaming'...  I'm just pointing out what I think the game is that they are trying to avoid.

Then they can request more BTC than these boards are worth. I was willing to send them even 30BTC for an advanced replacement, but they just refused it.

Yes, that was one of the proposed solutions the first time I saw this conversation.  I believe the reasoning was that people might still be glad to pay a premium to jump the queue.  I agree with you though, that it is just ridiculous that they would refuse a (price+30BTC) security for a single board.

[Paladin69]

So KNC would not accept even Bitcoins as a security in order to send working boards first as to minimize downtime for customers.
From where I am standing it looks like they are trying hard to work against their customers by refusing to come up with a RMA solution that works for both sides.
I can not think of a single reason why they would not accept BTC as a security in order to send working boards first, apart from trying to discourage people from using the RMA service.

This has to do with people trying to "Game" the system.

Maybe they don't want to be liable with your BTC or want to deal with customers saying they never got the BTC back (Lieing to game the system)

RMA has always been, send it back and they send you a new one. This isn't a new concept. While I understand the frustration of potentially losing money while it is RMA'd that is the nature of the beast and their hands are tied.

That's fucking stupid.  Most tech companies have an advanced RMA process to charge a CC temporarily.

Yeah bar, your wrong here. KnC is the first tech company I have dealt with in a while that DOESNT offer an advanced RMA

Never have experienced this. My apologies.

However you believe that when providing "Money Printing Machines" there should be advanced RMA? Sorry blame human nature.

No, I expect when my customers and I spend 10k+ on a machine, regardless of the industry, to have support to go with it. Ive been in the IT industry my entire life, and not even HP's RMA process (one of the worst in the industry) is on the ultra-low level of KnC. Ive never seen a RMA processes handled so poorly in my life. No communication, no flexibility, nothing. I would NOT buy another product from this company, not when they are too busy talking about the next thing to fix their current product. Im surprised paypal has not nuked their account from Orbit.

I expect advanced RMA when dealing with something time sensitive, let alone expensive. My dell's have a 24 hour turn around time, IE I get replacement parts within 24 hours or I get some serious compensation. Especially since KNC only sells to "businesses". You think any real business would put up with this kind of crap from one of its suppliers?

Hell even BFL was kind enough to send out Single boards first for me when I needed an RMA.  I can't believe I am praising BFL over KnC at this point.

[timmmers]

I have to second that.  It took me over a week of playing the game of "answering stupid questions one per day" before I finally managed to get an RMA-number.  Now that I've returned the defective module to them, I've heard nothing - zip - zero for another almost two weeks.

That is why advanced replacement w/ security deposit (CC, bank wire, bitcoin) is the only viable option.  Hopefully if KNC wants to keep playing dumb and pretending it can't be done other comeptitors will see an oppertunity to provide a better service.

As for bar, please don't make yourself look silly providing really weak and easily countered excuses you come up with off the top of your head.   There is nothing to "game".  A customer could not order and claim to or they could order and claim they never got the product.  OH NOES ordering stuff can be gamed I guess KNC will stop selling products.  KNC deals with the "risk" of being gamed on orders but can't on RMA.

What is the difference between an order and a RMA?  Simple the first one makes you money.  There is nothing more complicated about a "company ship first" RMA than a "customer ship first RMA" other than securing a deposit to ensure the customer returns the defective unit.

It's a standard back to base warranty.

What your suggesting is a total ball-ache.

You then need to block trace every payment, which become entirely more convoluted and confusing for customer service.

Keep it simple. Ship it, can you fix it?  or is it something more involved? in which case ship a replacement - get it out the door as soon as poss.

If Redacted wants to share his original tracking code, and is happy with us sharing the return code - you'll see for yourself - turn around the same day.

How many RMA's are there? Sounds like a lot if it's so hard to keep track.

If someone sent me a fucked product, then wanted ME to pay to send their shoddy product back to be replaced, then wouldn't act reasonably and speedily send a replacement because I may  be trying to con them in some way..ffs that's not a way to run a business.

It puzzles me how companies like KNC can spout all this commitment to the bitcoin economy, and not see that the bedrock of that economy is the ability for someone to mine the coins economically....and also the future of their business. People won't be back to lose another shitload of money in return for creating the coins to make the system work, funding the dev of the rigs...and being the only ones likely to not make anything.

In a gold rush the guys selling shovels don't break the miners legs with them..they need those guys to come back and buy again.

[-Redacted-]

Can someone verify that the address I was given to return the module to is correct?  
According to a manager at UPS International, this is not a valid address.

KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden

[CYPER]

It puzzles me how companies like KNC can spout all this commitment to the bitcoin economy, and not see that the bedrock of that economy is the ability for someone to mine the coins economically....and also the future of their business. People won't be back to lose another shitload of money in return for creating the coins to make the system work, funding the dev of the rigs...and being the only ones likely to not make anything.

Exactly my thought.
I had friends and relatives asking me about what I am doing and listening with interest when I explain to them what Bitcoin is and wanting to invest a lot of money too, completely trusting me with the decision.
I was going to tell to to buy from KNC eventually. I was...

[rolling]

Can someone verify that the address I was given to return the module to is correct?  
According to a manager at UPS International, this is not a valid address.

KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden

I wrote it as:

KNC
33 Birger Jarlsgatan
Stockholm 11145
Sweden

and they accepted that.  KNC received it and I am getting my replacement tomorrow in the US via UPS.

[CYPER]

Can someone verify that the address I was given to return the module to is correct?  
According to a manager at UPS International, this is not a valid address.

KnCMiner
Birger Jarlsgatan 33
11145 Stockholm
Sweden

That is the exact same address I was given too.