Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[lemonte]

https://ghash.io/ghashio_press_release.pdf

[Puppet]

From what I understand, 51%'ing a network does no harm unless the pool operator has bad intentions.

Are you really wiling to bet the value of of your (and mine and everyone else's) bitcoins to the intention of any single anonymous pool op ?

[Paladin69]

From what I understand, 51%'ing a network does no harm unless the pool operator has bad intentions.

Are you really wiling to bet the value of of your (and mine and everyone else's) bitcoins to the intention of any single anonymous pool op ?

It doesn't make sense why they would.  They are hurting their own cash cow too otherwise.

[Puppet]

It doesn't make sense why they would.  They are hurting their own cash cow too otherwise.

Not if they think they can get away with it. For the record, there is already very compelling evidence ghash.io was abused to pull off double spend attacks:
https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=327767.0

Now you may not have sympathy for the victim here,  being a gambling site accepting zero confirmation transactions, but if this is not reason enough for you to switch pools, honestly you deserve what it could lead to.

[Xian01]

Technically BFL is shipping from stock.  Although $1000 for 60GH is a huge rip off IMO.

 https://forums.butterflylabs.com/post-sales-customer-service/7405-no-refund-me-bad.html

 To be clear, I'm looking to buy a unit >=2TH

Why does Black Arrow throw red flags?

 Issues with customer service communicating in a timely and effective fashion.

[mmitech]

From what I understand, 51%'ing a network does no harm unless the pool operator has bad intentions.

Are you really wiling to bet the value of of your (and mine and everyone else's) bitcoins to the intention of any single anonymous pool op ?

It doesn't make sense why they would.  They are hurting their own cash cow too otherwise.

we should never put too much trust on one individual, Satoshi nakomoto designed the Bitcoin protocol so the trust is distributed among all miners and not one single pool/organization/individual, what is happening is a potential risk no matter how trustworthy the operator is....

otherwise I would not count on Ghash.IO because they are not trustworthy, what miners are not aware of is that this same pool tried to double spend few months ago when they had only 23% of the network hashpower and there is nothing stopping them from doing it again, especially now when they control this amount of power. for reference  https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=327767.0

please explain to me, why they have 0% fee ? what is the point ?  now that they are being a big risk why didnt they do something about it ? the only effort they did is to release a statement that once they reach 51% that they will give the chance for people buying power there to point their miners to other pools but then it will be too late....


it seems that all effort we are doing doesn't count for anything, and it seems that miners doesn't give a flying fuck about the network security, and it seems that each time we talk about this risk is like we do them a free advertisement because their hash rate keep growing ever since.

you miners are the only ones that can change this, so please start acting responsibly.

[seanrarey]

From what I understand, 51%'ing a network does no harm unless the pool operator has bad intentions.

Are you really wiling to bet the value of of your (and mine and everyone else's) bitcoins to the intention of any single anonymous pool op ?

It doesn't make sense why they would.  They are hurting their own cash cow too otherwise.

we should never put too much trust on one individual, Satoshi nakomoto designed the Bitcoin protocol so the trust is distributed among all miners and not one single pool/organization/individual, what is happening is a potential risk no matter how trustworthy the operator is....

otherwise I would not count on Ghash.IO because they are not trustworthy, what miners are not aware of is that this same pool tried to double spend few months ago when they had only 23% of the network hashpower and there is nothing stopping them from doing it again, especially now when they control this amount of power. for reference  https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=327767.0

please explain to me, why they have 0% fee ? what is the point ?  now that they are being a big risk why didnt they do something about it ? the only effort they did is to release a statement that once they reach 51% that they will give the chance for people buying power there to point their miners to other pools but then it will be too late....


it seems that all effort we are doing doesn't count for anything, and it seems that miners doesn't give a flying fuck about the network security, and it seems that each time we talk about this risk is like we do them a free advertisement because their hash rate keep growing ever since.

you miners are the only ones that can change this, so please start acting responsibly.

+1

[r1senfa17h]

Ok, if KnC announces a new batch of Jupiters - you can thank me. Why? Because I just spent all of my bitcoins on 13 x 200GH/s Avalon clones that are shipping "immediately" (haha, we'll see). To make me regret my decision, KnC will almost definitely sell the Jupiters I want now. You're welcome.

[CYPER]

I have GPUs pulling 350-360watts (29-30amps). I wasn't under the impression that the KNC modules were pulling that. I could be mistaken.

You surely must be mistaken:

What GPU pulls 350W?
How many cables are you using per GPU?
Are you aware that the PCI-E slot provides 75W of the total power?
Are you using powered PCI-E risers?

When you answer these questions you will understand that each 12V circuit on the GPU cabling uses less that the KNC board

[Xian01]

What GPU pulls 350W?

 Quite a few pull in excess of that, in fact.

[CYPER]

What GPU pulls 350W?

 Quite a few pull in excess of that, in fact.

You should follow the discussion before making such bold statements.

There is a big difference between GPUs and the KNC board.

KNC board uses 3x 12V circuits to carry up to 15A of current.

A GPU uses 6x 12V circuits to carry up to 23A of current.

Which one looks more to you?

Also can you show me which GPU "pull in excess of that"?

[r1senfa17h]

Hey,

Where has "The Avenger" been lately? I haven't seen him posting since HashFast went into its bunker. Coincidence?

</runs away after kicking hornet's nest>

[The Avenger]

Hey,

Where has "The Avenger" been lately? I haven't seen him posting since HashFast went into its bunker. Coincidence?

</runs away after kicking hornet's nest>

There is nothing to talk about which I haven't said already, i.e. knc ship more Jupiters - will they won't they?

... KnC knows it has the Lexus of Bitcoin Miners at present.  KnC can sell at will all it offers.

They can't. As I've been saying, if they flood the market with new Jupiters, it'll massively impact neptune sales/refunds. Anyone with money would buy a dozen jupiters for delivery in Jan/Feb and cancel all neptune orders. Because 3TH now is worth XXTH in June/July. They can't risk a mass refund on neptunes, as they will have no business. Also, if they flood the market with Jupiters, it'll increase the network hashrate dramatically and that'll make the neptune look less and less attractive. Could even kill it.

So, they are in a delightfully difficult situation   KNC can

1. Sell loads of Jupiters and forget neptune. Lot's of money, but the end of their business.
2. Sell limited number of Jupiters and hope it doesn't damage neptune sales or lead to mass neptune refunds (most likely scenario).
3. Sell loads of Jupiters, but make sure people with neptune orders cannot get a refund. In the process, make themselves the most hated asic company in the world.
4. Don't sell any new Jupiters and rely on neptune. But this bet relies on their competition screwing up and not being able to take the lead for the X months it takes knc to squeeze out the neptune. If competion surges ahead, knc are left behind. Any major delays in neptune - knc are dead.

How many more options do they have?

Ok, if KnC announces a new batch of Jupiters - you can thank me. Why? Because I just spent all of my bitcoins on 13 x 200GH/s Avalon clones that are shipping "immediately" (haha, we'll see). To make me regret my decision, KnC will almost definitely sell the Jupiters I want now. You're welcome.

P.S. I thought avalon clones were only pre-order right now and models were 20-60GH?

[Xian01]

Also can you show me which GPU "pull in excess of that"?

 My bad. Was looking at dual gpu figures on tomshardware. 6990's and 7990's are beasts, for example.

EDIT: ... and FWIW, just pulled the trigger on a batch 2 Neptune order. Whee !
 
*holds everyone tightly*

[vesperwillow]

What GPU pulls 350W?

I run 7970/280X decently overclocked. They each pull 340-360 on a good day. More if you want to really squash your balls on the wall, I've had them pull 380 before.

KNC board uses 3x 12V circuits to carry up to 15A of current.

A GPU uses 6x 12V circuits to carry up to 23A of current.

Which one looks more to you?

Yes, I understand 3x5a=15a and 6x3.8a=23a.

Are you aware that the PCI-E slot provides 75W of the total power?
Are you using powered PCI-E risers?

When you answer these questions you will understand that each 12V circuit on the GPU cabling uses less that the KNC board

Yeah I'm aware of PCB design, and how the PCIx platform provides power. No, I don't use powered risers, all of the juice flows through the PCIE connectors, which means they flow more current than a normal setup.

You also should follow the conversation, specifically my ignored my question regarding pushing the KNC clock beyond stock to cause the wires to reach danger levels. Most 18AWG has a 4x-6x safety rating built in (depending on purity, oxygen content and sleeving)--even at 10amps they should be safe bundled together. Bundled @ 5amps (KNC design) they shouldn't be a danger.

KNC isn't loopy, which is why they knew they could use 18AWG for the boards.

This is why I proposed some airflow across them for anyone concerned about temps, and that they shouldn't be reaching such high temps anyhow unless something is wrong. Again, mine don't get near that, another reason I was asking about overclock.

Edit: My modules are running 145-155gh, the cable temps are 36.9C, the room is 26.7C. I have no form of cooling on the cables.

[r1senfa17h]

Hey,

Where has "The Avenger" been lately? I haven't seen him posting since HashFast went into its bunker. Coincidence?

</runs away after kicking hornet's nest>

There is nothing to talk about which I haven't said already, i.e. knc ship more Jupiters - will they won't they?

... KnC knows it has the Lexus of Bitcoin Miners at present.  KnC can sell at will all it offers.

They can't. As I've been saying, if they flood the market with new Jupiters, it'll massively impact neptune sales/refunds. Anyone with money would buy a dozen jupiters for delivery in Jan/Feb and cancel all neptune orders. Because 3TH now is worth XXTH in June/July. They can't risk a mass refund on neptunes, as they will have no business. Also, if they flood the market with Jupiters, it'll increase the network hashrate dramatically and that'll make the neptune look less and less attractive. Could even kill it.

So, they are in a delightfully difficult situation   KNC can

1. Sell loads of Jupiters and forget neptune. Lot's of money, but the end of their business.
2. Sell limited number of Jupiters and hope it doesn't damage neptune sales or lead to mass neptune refunds (most likely scenario).
3. Sell loads of Jupiters, but make sure people with neptune orders cannot get a refund. In the process, make themselves the most hated asic company in the world.
4. Don't sell any new Jupiters and rely on neptune. But this bet relies on their competition screwing up and not being able to take the lead for the X months it takes knc to squeeze out the neptune. If competion surges ahead, knc are left behind. Any major delays in neptune - knc are dead.

How many more options do they have?

Ok, if KnC announces a new batch of Jupiters - you can thank me. Why? Because I just spent all of my bitcoins on 13 x 200GH/s Avalon clones that are shipping "immediately" (haha, we'll see). To make me regret my decision, KnC will almost definitely sell the Jupiters I want now. You're welcome.

P.S. I though avalon clones were only pre-order right now and models were 20-60GH?

My bad about your absence, sorry. Here's the thread with the Avalon BTMine units I was referring to.

[seanrarey]

I have GPUs pulling 350-360watts (29-30amps). I wasn't under the impression that the KNC modules were pulling that. I could be mistaken.

You surely must be mistaken:

What GPU pulls 350W?
How many cables are you using per GPU?
Are you aware that the PCI-E slot provides 75W of the total power?
Are you using powered PCI-E risers?

When you answer these questions you will understand that each 12V circuit on the GPU cabling uses less that the KNC board

I run banks of 7970 GPUs pulling up to 450w _EACH_... yeah, it adds up.

[The Avenger]

My bad about your absence, sorry. Here's the thread with the Avalon BTMine units I was referring to.

btmine only set up their bitcointalk username in mid-December?? 

It's a hella risky investment if you've gone all-in. But the factory photo's do look encouraging. Good luck with it.


The only thing I'd add to the ongoing jupiter speculation is the fact byteminr need new hashing power. And they've said on their blog they expect it in January 2014.

And if you know who's who, you know they will only get that hashing power from knc. They are most likely only paying cost (or less) for this hashing power (if you know who's who, that's obvious), so no way they'll be getting it from anyone else.

So the real cost of production would need to be taken up by people paying the full marked-up Jupiter price. I think this was the plan back in December when knc said have some coins ready. The timing would certainly fit to have a production run in January. But perhaps knc hadn't fully considered the impact on neptune and their future business if they did that?

The question is - can knc do a private sale of X jupiters to cover the production costs for byteminr units, which means they would not have to open it up to all the hungry miners in this thread?

Or will they open it up to everyone, but a limited sale? Or maybe another sale of boards? Or maybe they sell all the October Jupiters they have in the data centre and replace them with the cleaner November design? 

Who knows - all speculation at present. It'll be very interesting to see what they do.

[kmacri]

i've got a saturn and a jupiter.  scored them big local on my cl.  think i'll flip the saturn though.  i would prefer dual jups...

[faetos]

Also can you show me which GPU "pull in excess of that"?

 My bad. Was looking at dual gpu figures on tomshardware. 6990's and 7990's are beasts, for example.

EDIT: ... and FWIW, just pulled the trigger on a batch 2 Neptune order. Whee !
 
*holds everyone tightly*

*Big Hugz!*