Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Sorry, I left something unredacted in the last post. Here it is again:

(20nm hypothesis was wrong, so what's the "surprise"? hmmm)

That initial email goozman96 sent was to their default sales email, unless all those sales emails were compromised, everything sounds like it checks out.

This basically answers my question but if goozman can confirm that would be nice

This is very troubling to me. NDAs are very simple contracts...you talk and you're liable. Company's that deal with NDAs have standard policy not to divulge any information concerning any contract. So, if your Very lucky, they MIGHT tell you that XYZ Inc. is a client. But in all probability, they will not confirm anything...let alone that "we are working on a 28nm ASIC for Black Arrow". Their lawyers would have a field day with that. So I question the validity of the email.

Ergo, why I was told when asked on the phone by the lady I spoke with via the California number (asked her three times to repeat her name, but she had an Asian accent and I couldn't retrain it, opting to no ask a forth time) does Verisilicon tell anybody who calls or emails the name of those they have contracts with, and she said no?

This is exactly why I didn't take the time prior when asked by Black Arrow (Alex) to find out for myself, for I already knew it was an impossibility due to an NDA, of which was confirmed today when I did call.

There is no way that Verilisicon should be disclosing any information about any client of theirs, no matter how mundane. Reason being, it's gives an entity a leg up on what their competition is doing, nothing, I repeat, nothing any entity would want happen due to a breach of an NDA.

Assuming goozman96's info is accurate, having no reason to believe otherwise at this penning, there's only two possibilities left to explain what happened. One, Verisilicon breaks their NDA agreements, of which WILL be the death knell of their company. Or, two, Verisilicon is a Chinese entity aligned with Black Arrow to either produce the Minion or perpetuate the scam, with the best option being that they're aligned at the risk of losing future business.

Bear in mind, Verisilicon is not a terribly large enterprise in spite of all the flash seen on the internet. In essence, they are a middleman, a reseller, if you will, and could have easily placed themselves in position to look out for some entity they've created to get into the Bitcoin game.

Far fetched, yes, but not outside the realm of possibility unless, of course, this post is deleted.

~Bruno Kucinskas

[Bluebark]

They basically said exactly what BA had been telling us. If that would be a violation of the NDA, then BA would have been in violation of it a long time ago. Specifics about the deal are under NDA most likely, not broad facts that BA has been telling us this whole time (ie 28nm ASIC being made by verisilicon and globalfoundries)

Yes, I understand...but that does not detract from standard corporate policy of...keeping you mouth shut. BA can say all they want...it's their Tech. But Veri is under an NDA and That email blows it right out of the water. Think about it. How long do you think a company that handles other company's proprietary technology under NDAs would last if they had employees that talked to general population about said technology?

It doesn't make sense...IMO

Handing out proprietary technology =/= Confirming a non-secretive contract with a company

First, what I said was "handles other company's proprietary technology". I did not say "Handing out proprietary technology"...there is a difference even my feeble mind can understand. But regardless of my previous statement, NDAs mean you keep your Mouth Shut...Non Disclosure Agreement....what part of that is hard to understand?

And that is why i do not trust that email from Veri.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I guess BA Could Have authorized them to release a that information but then why go through the trouble of making everyone sing a NDA? Hell...even Matt is under the obligation of an NDA.

Again, I will state...something is amiss. Unless they are throwing out disinformation because they are in actuality, working on their 14nm tech. and want to blow away all their competition.

But that is just a dream I have...

Nothing is amiss.

"Hello. Is this Acme Corn Syrup?"
"Yes it is, how may I help you today."
"Can you tell me if Coca-Cola recently started ordering your new highly-prized syrup?"
"Click!"
"Hello. Hello! HELLO! Thought not, but it was worth a shot, for I've seen this trick used once before against Verisilicon."

Seems to me, Black Arrow has indirectly now lost millions of dollars of business for Verisilicon. Well-played!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I guess BA Could Have authorized them to release a that information but then why go through the trouble of making everyone sing a NDA? Hell...even Matt is under the obligation of an NDA.

Again, I will state...something is amiss. Unless they are throwing out disinformation because they are in actuality, working on their 14nm tech. and want to blow away all their competition.

But that is just a dream I have...

Nothing is amiss.

Fuck me! We CAN put this NDA thing to rest right here, right now.

Black Arrow Matt, does so-and-so have any orders on your books for bitcoin miners? All I want is a simple yes or no, nothing that I'm not privy to.

Apologies for being vague, does Dank have an order on Black Arrow's book for any bitcoin miners?

[Syke]

Fuck me!

No thanks.

We CAN put this NDA thing to rest right here, right now.

Sure, call Verisilicon China and ask.

[ChuckBuck]

Thank God!  Good follow through Goozman!

Now I can put PG on ignore again.   

[jml25]

They only confirmed publicly stated info by BA, nothing secret that is in the NDA. I know your heart is in the right place. Call the China offices and report back with your results. Otherwise, you are just being a fudster.

Exactly. NDA does not mean 'no one can talk about anything', necessarily. An NDA specifies what cannot be talked about but it's not the same (again, not necessarily) as not being able to talk at all about a matter. Depends on the specific NDA, and I guarantee you that ba's NDA with their resellers isn't the same NDA as they have with veriwhateveritscalled. So claiming anyone has breached an NDA Is reaching a bit unless you've read that specific NDA for yourself.

(And yes, I've read, and signed, a few NDA's in my time, and they all had different things I couldn't talk about in them)

[Bluebark]

Time to put this shit to rest once and for all!

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww214/terrorist96/jklsdfjflsgdh_zps34b93f60.png

Sorry for doubting you BA; but your support still does suck.

Wow...good to see! I stand corrected...and I'm glad.

[jml25]

They only confirmed publicly stated info by BA, nothing secret that is in the NDA. I know your heart is in the right place. Call the China offices and report back with your results. Otherwise, you are just being a fudster.

Exactly. NDA does not mean 'no one can talk about anything', necessarily. An NDA specifies what cannot be talked about but it's not the same (again, not necessarily) as not being able to talk at all about a matter. Depends on the specific NDA, and I guarantee you that ba's NDA with their resellers isn't the same NDA as they have with veriwhateveritscalled. So claiming anyone has breached an NDA Is reaching a bit unless you've read that specific NDA for yourself.

(And yes, I've read, and signed, a few NDA's in my time, and they all had different things I couldn't talk about in them)

So, what you're saying is that during the penning of the NDA, Black Arrow purposely allowed anybody who asks Verisilicon if a contract is in place, to go ahead and tell them, and that Robert would have taken the time to read said NDA prior to replying to some anonymous email.

Not only that, but the initial email only references http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/, whereupon Robert had to take the time to reference http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/minion-asic.html in his reply.

I'm saying:
-That NDA has a general meaning and a more specific meaning dependent on the terms of the specific NDA;
-I have not read the NDA's being discussed here, and likely neither has most anyone else on this thread.

[Bicknellski]

http://www.slideshare.net/hudali15/stupidity-spawns-creativity

The Role of Stupidity in Society.

Ali Anani, PhD
Managing Partner/ Phenomena Communications
Is stupidity a bad thing always? Or, does it have a dual role and can be rewarding sometimes?Are societies destroyed by stupid fools or there is an indirect blessed role for stupidity? Do we need to change our perspective on stupidity?

I shall not be stupid by not acting on the kind invitation by Magdalena to start a discussion thread on this topic.

Dear Ali, I invite you to post this presentation, here, on The Social Capital.

If we are not going to stick to the topic then please let us at least discuss the idea of Social Capital. Maybe some good can come out of the stupidity on display here. A more open and clear dialogue can happen between the actual parties who have a stake in this venture versus those who are merely perpetuating story lines in order to have people focus on their issues and agendas and not the issues of those who are stakeholders.

[TechByPC]

This is silly. If BA asked Verisilicon to disclose the fact of their agreement to anyone who asked, that would supersede the NDA. It makes sense that BA would ask them to do this specifically during this circumstance.  I'm sure if any one of Verisilicon's future customers saw this thread and asked, Verisilicon could produce documentation authorizing the disclosure of anything they said. As I said before, PG, I appreciate your efforts, but this is an empty rabbit hole you are looking down.

[Starlightbreaker]

3 days after refund request from MS, no response.

oh well.

i guess it's as good as gone...or waiting until the shit arrives.

[raskul]

but black arrow are purportedly the designers of the hardware, and very silly con, the manufacturers... so WHO ARE working the REAL fab-houses for Black Arrow, or is that just a step too far?

i'll wait for these posts to be deleted, AGAIN.

Probably TSMC.

possibly, but TSMC are currently putting full endeavour into 20nm (2 fab houses) and according to news, are opening another 2 fab houses in march.. doesn't leave much space to fab old tech? I may be wrong but i don't see why they would be making 28nm, when they have facility to produce 20nm... I'd reckon they'd be more focussed on doing the new tech, and progressing to 14nm... thoughts?


ADD: may I just also say, i'm glad you all got the clarity sorted, i'm sure your rigs will be the dugs baws. 

[jimmothy]

but black arrow are purportedly the designers of the hardware, and very silly con, the manufacturers... so WHO ARE working the REAL fab-houses for Black Arrow, or is that just a step too far?

i'll wait for these posts to be deleted, AGAIN.

Probably TSMC.

possibly, but TSMC are currently putting full endeavour into 20nm (2 fab houses) and according to news, are opening another 2 fab houses in march.. doesn't leave much space to fab old tech? I may be wrong but i don't see why they would be making 28nm, when they have facility to produce 20nm... I'd reckon they'd be more focussed on doing the new tech, and progressing to 14nm... thoughts?

Do you have any idea about what you're talking about.

Sorry if that sounds rude but literally a few posts before you someone confirmed the chips will be made by global foundries.

And just because 20nm exists doesn't mean the larger process sizes are useless. IIRC tsmc only made like 25% of their revenue from 28nm and the rest from larger sizes. Also the advantages of 20nm may not be significant enough to justify the nre costs.

[Biomech]

They basically said exactly what BA had been telling us. If that would be a violation of the NDA, then BA would have been in violation of it a long time ago. Specifics about the deal are under NDA most likely, not broad facts that BA has been telling us this whole time (ie 28nm ASIC being made by verisilicon and globalfoundries)

Yes, I understand...but that does not detract from standard corporate policy of...keeping you mouth shut. BA can say all they want...it's their Tech. But Veri is under an NDA and That email blows it right out of the water. Think about it. How long do you think a company that handles other company's proprietary technology under NDAs would last if they had employees that talked to general population about said technology?

It doesn't make sense...IMO

Handing out proprietary technology =/= Confirming a non-secretive contract with a company

BlackArrow had asked earlier that some people contact Verisilicon. I would assume that prior to doing that, he/she/they/it would have contacted Verisilicon and said "some fuckstains will be contacting you. This is what you can reveal without us getting butthurt" or something to that effect. What was addressed in the reply was not proprietary information, as BlackArrow has stated a relationship with Verisilicon since they first announced the project. Confirmations of this sort are not unheard of. More often it relates to "established" press people, but the internets have changed that paradigm beyond recognition, so that does not trouble me.

On a side note, Phinneas Gage is not trolling. Trolling is dragging a baited line behind a boat. PG is dynamite fishing.

[jimmothy]

They basically said exactly what BA had been telling us. If that would be a violation of the NDA, then BA would have been in violation of it a long time ago. Specifics about the deal are under NDA most likely, not broad facts that BA has been telling us this whole time (ie 28nm ASIC being made by verisilicon and globalfoundries)

Yes, I understand...but that does not detract from standard corporate policy of...keeping you mouth shut. BA can say all they want...it's their Tech. But Veri is under an NDA and That email blows it right out of the water. Think about it. How long do you think a company that handles other company's proprietary technology under NDAs would last if they had employees that talked to general population about said technology?

It doesn't make sense...IMO

Handing out proprietary technology =/= Confirming a non-secretive contract with a company

BlackArrow had asked earlier that some people contact Verisilicon. I would assume that prior to doing that, he/she/they/it would have contacted Verisilicon and said "some fuckstains will be contacting you. This is what you can reveal without us getting butthurt" or something to that effect. What was addressed in the reply was not proprietary information, as BlackArrow has stated a relationship with Verisilicon since they first announced the project. Confirmations of this sort are not unheard of. More often it relates to "established" press people, but the internets have changed that paradigm beyond recognition, so that does not trouble me.

On a side note, Phinneas Gage is not trolling. Trolling is dragging a baited line behind a boat. PG is dynamite fishing.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

But about pg, I am not sure if it is considered trolling under the textbook definition, but a "crusade" set on making BA look bad based on incredibly flimsy findings certainly doesn't help anyone.

[Biomech]

but black arrow are purportedly the designers of the hardware, and very silly con, the manufacturers... so WHO ARE working the REAL fab-houses for Black Arrow, or is that just a step too far?

i'll wait for these posts to be deleted, AGAIN.

Probably TSMC.

possibly, but TSMC are currently putting full endeavour into 20nm (2 fab houses) and according to news, are opening another 2 fab houses in march.. doesn't leave much space to fab old tech? I may be wrong but i don't see why they would be making 28nm, when they have facility to produce 20nm... I'd reckon they'd be more focussed on doing the new tech, and progressing to 14nm... thoughts?

Do you have any idea about what you're talking about.

Sorry if that sounds rude but literally a few posts before you someone confirmed the chips will be made by global foundries.

And just because 20nm exists doesn't mean the larger process sizes are useless. IIRC tsmc only made like 25% of their revenue from 28nm and the rest from larger sizes. Also the advantages of 20nm may not be significant enough to justify the nre costs.

Wasn't me, though I did see that after I posted the above.

[raskul]

but black arrow are purportedly the designers of the hardware, and very silly con, the manufacturers... so WHO ARE working the REAL fab-houses for Black Arrow, or is that just a step too far?

i'll wait for these posts to be deleted, AGAIN.

Probably TSMC.

possibly, but TSMC are currently putting full endeavour into 20nm (2 fab houses) and according to news, are opening another 2 fab houses in march.. doesn't leave much space to fab old tech? I may be wrong but i don't see why they would be making 28nm, when they have facility to produce 20nm... I'd reckon they'd be more focussed on doing the new tech, and progressing to 14nm... thoughts?

Do you have any idea about what you're talking about.

Sorry if that sounds rude but literally a few posts before you someone confirmed the chips will be made by global foundries.

And just because 20nm exists doesn't mean the larger process sizes are useless. IIRC tsmc only made like 25% of their revenue from 28nm and the rest from larger sizes. Also the advantages of 20nm may not be significant enough to justify the nre costs.

sure, no problem, TSMC have a good number of fab houses, and yes, I replied to Biomech without seeing that globalfoundries post.

However I do think I know a bit about what i'm talking about, it's interesting, and as such, i enjoy reading up on tech (not limited to discussion forums) - but please don't think i'm just trolling, as my username states, I can be a bit of an antagonist at times, and i'm not saying that i'm immune to being wrong, and i'm happy to admit, when i'm wrong... but I still have issues with any type of pre-order, because i have been stung in the past and I do a lot of :facepalm: seeing posts regarding pre-orders... anyway, i'm interested in this thread because when the rigs are shipped, I want to know how they perform and the customer experience. I'll be keen to get a black arrow rig when I can get one (in stock). the problems you are all experiencing in the order process are not new problems, moreover, they are recurring problems -  a lot of this industry is based on trust, and with trust, often comes panic. It's good to get the facts on an issue, and people's minds can be put to rest.

anyway, i'm rambling now... Black Arrow have a good future offering and i'll be glad to be part of it, if and when I think it's worthwhile to do so.

best,

R

[Biomech]

They basically said exactly what BA had been telling us. If that would be a violation of the NDA, then BA would have been in violation of it a long time ago. Specifics about the deal are under NDA most likely, not broad facts that BA has been telling us this whole time (ie 28nm ASIC being made by verisilicon and globalfoundries)

Yes, I understand...but that does not detract from standard corporate policy of...keeping you mouth shut. BA can say all they want...it's their Tech. But Veri is under an NDA and That email blows it right out of the water. Think about it. How long do you think a company that handles other company's proprietary technology under NDAs would last if they had employees that talked to general population about said technology?

It doesn't make sense...IMO

Handing out proprietary technology =/= Confirming a non-secretive contract with a company

BlackArrow had asked earlier that some people contact Verisilicon. I would assume that prior to doing that, he/she/they/it would have contacted Verisilicon and said "some fuckstains will be contacting you. This is what you can reveal without us getting butthurt" or something to that effect. What was addressed in the reply was not proprietary information, as BlackArrow has stated a relationship with Verisilicon since they first announced the project. Confirmations of this sort are not unheard of. More often it relates to "established" press people, but the internets have changed that paradigm beyond recognition, so that does not trouble me.

On a side note, Phinneas Gage is not trolling. Trolling is dragging a baited line behind a boat. PG is dynamite fishing.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

But about pg, I am not sure if it is considered trolling under the textbook definition, but a "crusade" set on making BA look bad based on incredibly flimsy findings certainly doesn't help anyone.

Was mostly joking there. PG goes overboard, but has often exposed some pretty elaborate scams. I find him entertaining, though I would not want to be in his crosshairs. FWIW I don't think BA is a scam, but I also have no skin in this. Minersource and DMZ are definitely not scams, whatever the past of their respective officers.

I think the community needs crusaders like Bruno, but we also need to have our personal bullshit detectors set on max at all times. Regardless of desire and motive. I take a middle line on practically everything here. I've been dead wrong a couple of times, on the money once, and the rest kinda held to the middle. Bitcoin ASIC companies tend to not have their shit wired. That is my starting assumption with all of them. So far the only exception has been Bitmain, which I initially thought was a scam.

[Biomech]

They basically said exactly what BA had been telling us. If that would be a violation of the NDA, then BA would have been in violation of it a long time ago. Specifics about the deal are under NDA most likely, not broad facts that BA has been telling us this whole time (ie 28nm ASIC being made by verisilicon and globalfoundries)

Yes, I understand...but that does not detract from standard corporate policy of...keeping you mouth shut. BA can say all they want...it's their Tech. But Veri is under an NDA and That email blows it right out of the water. Think about it. How long do you think a company that handles other company's proprietary technology under NDAs would last if they had employees that talked to general population about said technology?

It doesn't make sense...IMO

Handing out proprietary technology =/= Confirming a non-secretive contract with a company

BlackArrow had asked earlier that some people contact Verisilicon. I would assume that prior to doing that, he/she/they/it would have contacted Verisilicon and said "some fuckstains will be contacting you. This is what you can reveal without us getting butthurt" or something to that effect. What was addressed in the reply was not proprietary information, as BlackArrow has stated a relationship with Verisilicon since they first announced the project. Confirmations of this sort are not unheard of. More often it relates to "established" press people, but the internets have changed that paradigm beyond recognition, so that does not trouble me.

On a side note, Phinneas Gage is not trolling. Trolling is dragging a baited line behind a boat. PG is dynamite fishing.

What really pisses me off is that I can dispute this. 

Well, perhaps by saying you're grenade fishing.... LoL.