[ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated]

[Vigil]

I don't understand how Intellihash can possibly work unless the chips are gimped from the start due to inefficient firmware. Chips: "Mining difficulty is increasing, we are now able to activate hashing thrusters because they couldn't be activated at a difficulty of x.xx Ph but can be at x.xx+.01 Ph..." For it to be anything other than initially gimped hashing power, it would require some as of yet undiscovered mathematical connection between difficulty and hashing rate. Whereby the ActM chip logic can use the increased difficulty to its advantage over other chips.

Otherwise why couldn't this be solved simply through a firmware update? Or is this Intellihash actually making the chips themselves upgradeable to some extent?

Edit: Not that I am an expert in this or calling Ken a liar, I just don't understand how this works.

[VolanicEruptor]

I don't understand how Intellihash can possibly work unless the chips are gimped from the start due to inefficient firmware. Chips: "Mining difficulty is increasing, we are now able to activate hashing thrusters because they couldn't be activated at a difficulty of x.xx Ph but can be at x.xx+.01 Ph..." For it to be anything other than initially gimped hashing power, it would require some as of yet undiscovered mathematical connection between difficulty and hashing rate. Whereby the ActM chip logic can use the increased difficulty to its advantage over other chips.

Otherwise why couldn't this be solved simply through a firmware update? Or is this Intellihash actually making the chips themselves upgradeable to some extent?

Edit: Not that I am an expert in this or calling Ken a liar, I just don't understand how this works.

He won't answer questions on here.  Your best bet is to phone him tomorrow.  Everyone would like to know how he would answer this.

[lobbes]

I don't understand how Intellihash can possibly work unless the chips are gimped from the start due to inefficient firmware. Chips: "Mining difficulty is increasing, we are now able to activate hashing thrusters because they couldn't be activated at a difficulty of x.xx Ph but can be at x.xx+.01 Ph..." For it to be anything other than initially gimped hashing power, it would require some as of yet undiscovered mathematical connection between difficulty and hashing rate. Whereby the ActM chip logic can use the increased difficulty to its advantage over other chips.

Otherwise why couldn't this be solved simply through a firmware update? Or is this Intellihash actually making the chips themselves upgradeable to some extent?

Edit: Not that I am an expert in this or calling Ken a liar, I just don't understand how this works.

He won't answer questions on here.  Your best bet is to phone him tomorrow.  Everyone would like to know how he would answer this.

N.D.A probably, but I'd tip whoever could report back with this info.

[Jasun7211]

I could be wrong about that though.

if production costs ~$2/GH (which it should, seeing as how cointerra is selling for $2/gh), then ROI is in about 10 days.  In the short term it only makes sense to run a mining farm.  I can run this through the profit calculator again with a screenshot to prove this math.  How do you make ROI in 10 days selling the hardware, especially "if your margins are tight" as Ken has already admitted?

I know that mining is where the money is. It's the other guy that is completely out of his mind. I want us to spend 100% of our energy to mining. Fuck selling, fuck wasting time on intellihash and trying to get on these shitty exchanges. Just start mining. Lets direct share this shit.

You can't accurately price in fiat.  I highly doubt Ken is converting btc to fiat anyway...that sort of defeats the goal of this company.  Our debt based fiat system is open ended with an unlimited supply of notes.  The Fed mines them everyday via the CTRL +P Buttons.  Btc has a hard limit of 21 million coins.  Lets assume all fiat collapses tonight.  No dollars.  Everything is priced in btc.  You buy miners in btc to get some btc divys rinse and repeat over and over.  So your putting more value acquireing more coins in a constantly diminishing pool.  Thats if your lucky enough to crack the block.  2017 the block reward gets halved again.  That being said and looking forward this is not a good business model in the limited supply ecosystem of btc.  In the fiat world mining or printing is the best business model.  You can't use debt based fiat thinking to figure out value of this company or its btc mining operation value.  Just look at any PMB performance.  I bought this company because it wasn't a miner first.  If you want mining divys I'd go with something like what CEX.io.  I don't want this stock to start acting like a PMB.  I want its value in its hardware and innovation.  I m aiming for a high share price first via value flowing into the company.  

If one is looking for real divys I would buy shares of an exchange since the same limited pool of btc washes over that exchange over and over again, and with very little overhead. Even the free faucets are better at giving off btc than some miners.  

Again the conversion to fiat is where the calculation is flawed. Doesn't matter if btc is worth $1 or $100, 000, 000. The absolute amount of btc you have is what really counts.  Remember we are after btc not dollars. People invested in btc stocks arnt likely to turn these coins back to fiat...if anything we will trade them for metals or cash them in for real income producing assets like Real Estate.  We all should have atleast 1btc idle for purchasing power since its a deflationary currency by nature.  Because of this there's less and less coins to go around for a divy when mined.  

[VolanicEruptor]

I could be wrong about that though.

if production costs ~$2/GH (which it should, seeing as how cointerra is selling for $2/gh), then ROI is in about 10 days.  In the short term it only makes sense to run a mining farm.  I can run this through the profit calculator again with a screenshot to prove this math.  How do you make ROI in 10 days selling the hardware, especially "if your margins are tight" as Ken has already admitted?

I know that mining is where the money is. It's the other guy that is completely out of his mind. I want us to spend 100% of our energy to mining. Fuck selling, fuck wasting time on intellihash and trying to get on these shitty exchanges. Just start mining. Lets direct share this shit.

You can't accurately price in fiat.  I highly doubt Ken is converting btc to fiat anyway...that sort of defeats the goal of this company.  Our debt based fiat system is open ended with an unlimited supply of notes.  The Fed mines them everyday via the CTRL +P Buttons.  Btc has a hard limit of 21 million coins.  Lets assume all fiat collapses tonight.  No dollars.  Everything is priced in btc.  You buy miners in btc to get some btc divys rinse and repeat over and over.  So your putting more value acquireing more coins in a constantly diminishing pool.  Thats if your lucky enough to crack the block.  2017 the block reward gets halved again.  That being said and looking forward this is not a good business model in the limited supply ecosystem of btc.  In the fiat world mining or printing is the best business model.  You can't use debt based fiat thinking to figure out value of this company or its btc mining operation value.  Just look at any PMB performance.  I bought this company because it wasn't a miner first.  If you want mining divys I'd go with something like what CEX.io.  I don't want this stock to start acting like a PMB.  I want its value in its hardware and innovation.  I m aiming for a high share price first via value flowing into the company.  

If one is looking for real divys I would buy shares of an exchange since the same limited pool of btc washes over that exchange over and over again, and with very little overhead. Even the free faucets are better at giving off btc than some miners.  

Again the conversion to fiat is where the calculation is flawed. Doesn't matter if btc is worth $1 or $100, 000, 000. The absolute amount of btc you have is what really counts.  Remember we are after btc not dollars. People invested in btc stocks arnt likely to turn these coins back to fiat...if anything we will trade them for metals or cash them in for real income producing assets like Real Estate.  We all should have atleast 1btc idle for purchasing power since its a deflationary currency by nature.  Because of this there's less and less coins to go around for a divy when mined.  

Your head is fucked.
If you make $1000 from selling a machine to a customer, you need to turn that $1000 into BTC to pay your investors.  
When Bitcoin was $100, that would have been 10 bitcoins produced from sales and paid out.
Now that BTC is $1000, that same profit is now equal to 1 Bitcoin.

It's now hard to get that ROI back (.0025 Bitcoins per share), because now you need to make 10x the amount of fiat to pay out the same amount of dividends in BTC.  

How can you not see this?
Sales are in weak fiat.  This means less bitcoins.

[VolanicEruptor]

You are all accepting what Ken is giving you because most of you fail to see the simple math.  I will literally draw a picture out for you.  I'll have it done tomorrow.

[JoTheKhan]

Jasun I'm glad you decided to spend a couple hours or so actively researching before you responded. But I must say. What the fuck are you talking about? None of what you said matters at all.

 "You can't accurately price in fiat." : Price what? BTC. Yes I can, I can look on Bitstamp or Coinbase where I sell my coins and see what the going rate is.

"Our debt based fiat system is open ended with an unlimited supply of notes. The Fed mines them everyday via the CRTL +P buttons. Btc has a hard limit of 21 million coins. Lets assume all fiat collapses tonight. No dollars. Everything is priced in btc. You buy miners in btc to get some btc divys rinse and repeat over and over. So your putting more value acquireing more coins in a constantly diminishing pool." : Again, what the fuck are you talking about? You want us to sell miners more than mine with them because the dollar can crash tomorrow? So if we sell a miner for $155,000 and the dollar crashes tomorrow this is better than mining btc which would be worth more money tomorrow because of the dollar crash?

I don't have the patience to continue on with you. My friend you are very delusional if you think more money will come out of selling these miners for dust change compared to mining with them. These miners can mine FAR more money than what we are selling them for. Please reread the bolded sentence until you completely understand that. Everyone on this thread except for you knows that selling these machines for crap change is not helping us as much as it is hurting us. If you don't want to invest in a company that mines. Then I ask that you leave.

I find this so funny by the way. You said "Remember we are after btc not dollars." So then why not mine with the machines which will get ROI in less than two weeks?

[JoTheKhan]

Jasun I'm glad you decided to spend a couple hours or so actively researching before you responded. But I must say. What the fuck are you talking about? None of what you said matters at all.

 "You can't accurately price in fiat." : Price what? BTC. Yes I can, I can look on Bitstamp or Coinbase where I sell my coins and see what the going rate is.

"Our debt based fiat system is open ended with an unlimited supply of notes. The Fed mines them everyday via the CRTL +P buttons. Btc has a hard limit of 21 million coins. Lets assume all fiat collapses tonight. No dollars. Everything is priced in btc. You buy miners in btc to get some btc divys rinse and repeat over and over. So your putting more value acquireing more coins in a constantly diminishing pool." : Again, what the fuck are you talking about? You want us to sell miners more than mine with them because the dollar can crash tomorrow? So if we sell a miner for $155,000 and the dollar crashes tomorrow this is better than mining btc which would be worth more money tomorrow because of the dollar crash?

I don't have the patience to continue on with you. My friend you are very delusional if you think more money will come out of selling these miners for dust change compared to mining with them. These miners can mine FAR more money than what we are selling them for. Please reread the bolded sentence until you completely understand that. Everyone on this thread except for you knows that selling these machines for crap change is not helping us as much as it is hurting us. If you don't want to invest in a company that mines. Then I ask that you leave.

I find this so funny by the way. You said "Remember we are after btc not dollars." So then why not mine with the machines which will get ROI in less than two weeks?

I forgot. My apologies Ken; when do you expect us to start mining? Sometime before Christmas of course, or I mean you would tell us right? Right? ( I would hope before the end of next week. )

[Jasun7211]

I don't understand how Intellihash can possibly work unless the chips are gimped from the start due to inefficient firmware. Chips: "Mining difficulty is increasing, we are now able to activate hashing thrusters because they couldn't be activated at a difficulty of x.xx Ph but can be at x.xx+.01 Ph..." For it to be anything other than initially gimped hashing power, it would require some as of yet undiscovered mathematical connection between difficulty and hashing rate. Whereby the ActM chip logic can use the increased difficulty to its advantage over other chips.

Otherwise why couldn't this be solved simply through a firmware update? Or is this Intellihash actually making the chips themselves upgradeable to some extent?

Edit: Not that I am an expert in this or calling Ken a liar, I just don't understand how this works.

If its what I think it is its based on software that old quantfunds and HFT machines use not to increase the TFLOP or now ExaFLOP rates.  Esentially HFT shops are the bridge from the old paradigm connecting ASIC's in this paradigm.  Intellehash is a product on its own...more of an application than anything.  You can play candy crush on both android and ios right....and windows unix and anyother hardware software platform right...Candy crush wins in the big picture because of its flexibility.  

[VolanicEruptor]

Jasun, are you familiar with how much Bitcoin we need to make before we crack ROI?  Let's take this one step at a time.. I want to make sure you understand this first concept..

[Jasun7211]

I could be wrong about that though.

if production costs ~$2/GH (which it should, seeing as how cointerra is selling for $2/gh), then ROI is in about 10 days.  In the short term it only makes sense to run a mining farm.  I can run this through the profit calculator again with a screenshot to prove this math.  How do you make ROI in 10 days selling the hardware, especially "if your margins are tight" as Ken has already admitted?

I know that mining is where the money is. It's the other guy that is completely out of his mind. I want us to spend 100% of our energy to mining. Fuck selling, fuck wasting time on intellihash and trying to get on these shitty exchanges. Just start mining. Lets direct share this shit.

You can't accurately price in fiat.  I highly doubt Ken is converting btc to fiat anyway...that sort of defeats the goal of this company.  Our debt based fiat system is open ended with an unlimited supply of notes.  The Fed mines them everyday via the CTRL +P Buttons.  Btc has a hard limit of 21 million coins.  Lets assume all fiat collapses tonight.  No dollars.  Everything is priced in btc.  You buy miners in btc to get some btc divys rinse and repeat over and over.  So your putting more value acquireing more coins in a constantly diminishing pool.  Thats if your lucky enough to crack the block.  2017 the block reward gets halved again.  That being said and looking forward this is not a good business model in the limited supply ecosystem of btc.  In the fiat world mining or printing is the best business model.  You can't use debt based fiat thinking to figure out value of this company or its btc mining operation value.  Just look at any PMB performance.  I bought this company because it wasn't a miner first.  If you want mining divys I'd go with something like what CEX.io.  I don't want this stock to start acting like a PMB.  I want its value in its hardware and innovation.  I m aiming for a high share price first via value flowing into the company.  

If one is looking for real divys I would buy shares of an exchange since the same limited pool of btc washes over that exchange over and over again, and with very little overhead. Even the free faucets are better at giving off btc than some miners.  

Again the conversion to fiat is where the calculation is flawed. Doesn't matter if btc is worth $1 or $100, 000, 000. The absolute amount of btc you have is what really counts.  Remember we are after btc not dollars. People invested in btc stocks arnt likely to turn these coins back to fiat...if anything we will trade them for metals or cash them in for real income producing assets like Real Estate.  We all should have atleast 1btc idle for purchasing power since its a deflationary currency by nature.  Because of this there's less and less coins to go around for a divy when mined.  

Your head is fucked.
If you make $1000 from selling a machine to a customer, you need to turn that $1000 into BTC to pay your investors.  
When Bitcoin was $100, that would have been 10 bitcoins produced from sales and paid out.
Now that BTC is $1000, that same profit is now equal to 1 Bitcoin.

It's now hard to get that ROI back (.0025 Bitcoins per share), because now you need to make 10x the amount of fiat to pay out the same amount of dividends in BTC.  

How can you not see this?
Sales are in weak fiat.  This means less bitcoins.

Sales is a whole different ball game.  I agree with you on that. Miners should be priced by a. what the market bears, and b. In proportion to the USD or whatever fiat you use to price the miners in in relation to its bitcoin price. Many btc websites are set up like that now.  Where the fiat and btc prices are constantly moving in relation to eachother.  Loom at goldsilverbitcoin.com for a live example of this.    I was talking only about mining.  Sometimes I wish you guys would actually read what I write.  You can't talk about apples and debate almonds.

[redbeans2012]

I think I'd feel safer investing in Crypto-trade itself. 

[VolanicEruptor]

It's not a matter of opinion, simple math shows us that when Bitcoin is low, selling the "picks and shovels" is a better route.
But when Bitcoin is raging high, its time to get on your knees a dig.  I feel like more of you are starting to see this, and I am finally feeling like we're accomplishing something here.

[knybe]

Guess this is only throwing more wood on the fire, but...

Business Insider: Bitcoin Developer Sells $8 Million Worth Of Hardware In 24 Hours, As Mining Technology Arms Race Goes Insane

EDIT:
from a PR standpoint; I'll bet if we had Ken's fat smiling face holding one of the boards in BI, we'd be selling that much as well too… no?

[JoTheKhan]

Guess this is only throwing more wood on the fire, but...

Business Insider: Bitcoin Developer Sells $8 Million Worth Of Hardware In 24 Hours, As Mining Technology Arms Race Goes Insane

You've fueled it. I think I need to step away from this conversation.

But before I forget. Ken when do you expect us to start mining? =D

[Jasun7211]

I think I'd feel safer investing in Crypto-trade itself. 

I get awesome divys from crypto trade, more than ill ever get from any pure mining operation or any PMB.  CEX.io is the best option for that.  Since btcs are limited to 21 million exchanges are the only place for divys.  In the fiat world divys can be created out of thin air since there's an unlimites supply of fiat.  Theoretically if you owned all the exchanges you have the possibility of owning every btc over enough time and transactions.  That is impossible in a fiat world because you need to creat more and more money to pay the interest in the fiat....btc is non interest bearing so that changes the thinking vs. Fiat thinking

[redbeans2012]

I think I'd feel safer investing in Crypto-trade itself. 

I get awesome divys from crypto trade, more than ill ever get from any pure mining operation or any PMB.  CEX.io is the best option for that.  Since btcs are limited to 21 million exchanges are the only place for divys.  In the fiat world divys can be created out of thin air since there's an unlimites supply of fiat.  Theoretically if you owned all the exchanges you have the possibility of owning every btc over enough time and transactions.  That is impossible in a fiat world because you need to creat more and more money to pay the interest in the fiat....btc is non interest bearing so that changes the thinking vs. Fiat thinking

Yeah they have always seemed to have their shit together and they have a nice exchange.  I figure their earnings can only go higher as they list companies.  That can get alot of funds to the site and people can stay to trade cryptos if they so please. Of course you have the risk of the whole exchange freaking out and shutting down though.  Planned on buying in soon but that dam ipo wall wont go away.

[redbeans2012]

Can anyone answer why Ken had over 100 btc's on Ukyo's site?

how do we know it wasn't the btc's he was using to personally buy up his own stock?

He lost it and said it was the companies bitcoins.  Why did he have so many of the "companies" bitcoins on there?

[Jasun7211]

It's not a matter of opinion, simple math shows us that when Bitcoin is low, selling the "picks and shovels" is a better route.
But when Bitcoin is raging high, its time to get on your knees a dig.  I feel like more of you are starting to see this, and I am finally feeling like we're accomplishing something here.

Again usd price doesn't matter in mining.  Btc was created to be self regulating.  So far this has held true.  As the fiat price rises so does the difficulty and overhead.  Right now the arbitrage in the market is the cheap miners vs the fiat price of btc.  That should self regulate but hasent yet....but what will the market bear? If it gets too expensive then only big boys can enter the mining space killing any current farms.  Hft firms and banks will just create fiat out of thin air and snap up all the miners and then you run into the 51% problem potential.  If that happens I'd sell any other minjng operation that second.

[VolanicEruptor]

It's not a matter of opinion, simple math shows us that when Bitcoin is low, selling the "picks and shovels" is a better route.
But when Bitcoin is raging high, its time to get on your knees a dig.  I feel like more of you are starting to see this, and I am finally feeling like we're accomplishing something here.

Again usd price doesn't matter in mining.  

This is the most insane argument I have ever heard in my life.  How old are you?