Second chance for mixers?

[LoyceV]

Did you know that in some places in Europe the maximum you can pay in cash is just €500 (Greece) or €1,000 (Spain and France)? This is not just about cryptocurrencies is about control.

The irony of not being allowed to use legal tender, but forced to use a private corporation's made-up numbers is apparently missed on them.

[TryNinja]

I don't know how you concluded that the EU was the reason for eXch's shutdown , but the US is still pursuing mixers on money laundering charges. The only difference is that they have stopped attacking end users.

I guess theymos might still give it a second go even if mixers are still being shutdown by agencies if it's proven that those agencies won't go after people putting a mere small banner below their posts about the service, just like they won't got for legitimate users that want privacy and are not hacking exchanges and phishing people.

[joker_josue]

Did you know that in some places in Europe the maximum you can pay in cash is just €500 (Greece) or €1,000 (Spain and France)? This is not just about cryptocurrencies is about control.

The irony of not being allowed to use legal tender, but forced to use a private corporation's made-up numbers is apparently missed on them.

In Portugal the limit is €3,000 for residents, and up to €10,000 for foreigners.
https://www.bportugal.pt/en/page/acceptance-means-payment

They create these laws to supposedly make money laundering and the black market more difficult.
As the bandits cannot turn things around with any ease within these limits.

[Lucius]

Well, apparently in the EU until recently there were bitcoin ATMs where you could make transactions without KYC under €1,000, and although KYC for all transactions has a limit to be implemented in September practically all ATMs have already implemented it.

I don't know about crypto ATMs because I don't use them, but there are still physical exchange offices (in my country) where you can buy/sell cryptocurrencies up to 1000 EUR worth per transaction without KYC. Given that there are several different companies that offer such a service and that they have dozens of physical branches, it is easy to conclude that the old rules still apply in some EU member states.

USDT has been banned in Europe, you cannot use it legally (it is currently the third cryptocurrency, on its way to be the second in market cap). This coupled with things like what LoyceV commented before. And due to the EU's taste for over regulate I have a feeling that this is only going to be the beginning.
~snip~

I don't miss it, in fact I have never made a transaction in that so-called stablecoin, which is actually a worse version of fiat currency that also has the ability to freeze funds regardless of which wallet they are in. The ECB has been making statements for years that stablecoins are their main target, so it was inevitable that this would happen.

So seemingly, things are much worse in the EU than in the USA in this respect.

That's how it seems for now - but if after 4 years there are changes in the US, the next president can undo everything this one is currently doing and turn things back. Whatever the case, one should not delude oneself that the powerful countries of the world will let things take their course; they are protecting themselves and the system they have built over hundreds of years to rule the world with that system.

Cryptocurrencies are currently just one small pebble in their shoe that sometimes reminds them that they need to do something, but they still don't mind so much that they resort to drastic measures. Realistically, all they need to do is declare cryptocurrencies illegal and ban all CEXs - how many people do you think would give up after that?

[EarnOnVictor]

I don't know how you concluded that the EU was the reason for eXch's shutdown , but the US is still pursuing mixers on money laundering charges. The only difference is that they have stopped attacking end users.

I guess theymos might still give it a second go even if mixers are still being shutdown by agencies if it's proven that those agencies won't go after people putting a mere small banner below their posts about the service, just like they won't got for legitimate users that want privacy and are not hacking exchanges and phishing people.

By now, I think this mixer of a thing should have been put behind us, theymos will do anything that will make people think he didn't think it well before he acted, and for me, that decision was a perfect one. The repercussion he guarded against is different from the end-user discussion, but those who are advertising them.

Is it not better to safely advertise here and not be known to advertise what the government is clamping down on? Many must have missed the big money from mixers, but it can't be compared to shutting the forum for it.

Despite the big mixers' money, how many big advertising outlets do you know that openly advertise for them?

[JayJuanGee]

You are not wrong, but personally, I would feel MOAR better if there were to be a qualifier placed within your above statement.

Well, apparently in the EU until recently there were bitcoin ATMs where you could make transactions without KYC under €1,000, and although KYC for all transactions has a limit to be implemented in September practically all ATMs have already implemented it. USDT has been banned in Europe, you cannot use it legally (it is currently the third cryptocurrency, on its way to be the second in market cap). This coupled with things like what LoyceV commented before. And due to the EU's taste for over regulate I have a feeling that this is only going to be the beginning. Just think one thing, this €1,000 limit, even if they don't lower it, due to inflation in a few years is going to be a laugh.

Did you know that in some places in Europe the maximum you can pay in cash is just €500 (Greece) or €1,000 (Spain and France)? This is not just about cryptocurrencies is about control.

So seemingly, things are much worse in the EU than in the USA in this respect.

I likely was not commenting so much about how bad and/or draconian things have gotten in certain parts of the world, whether in the EU or otherwise, but instead commenting on how each of us likely needs to continue to be skeptical of governments and keep pushing them, even if they might seem friendly towards bitcoin and/or the industry.

So seemingly, things are much worse in the EU than in the USA in this respect.

That's how it seems for now - but if after 4 years there are changes in the US, the next president can undo everything this one is currently doing and turn things back. Whatever the case, one should not delude oneself that the powerful countries of the world will let things take their course; they are protecting themselves and the system they have built over hundreds of years to rule the world with that system.

I doubt that we need to reserve our skepticism for 4 years down the road, and even though Trump seems to have had been moving in a correct direction regarding several aspects of bitcoin (and perhaps even crypto), there are ways in which whatever he is doing might not be enough, since as you seem to suggest, I doubt that we can presume that Trump et al is going to completely let bitcoin compete with the dollar in terms of potentially removing peer to peer transacting obstacles that are currently in place in regards to taxing and accounting and even the various incentives around the use of third party custodians and KYC ramifications don't seem friendly and I cannot see a whole hell of a lot of practical difference between some of the stable coins and CBDCs.. except private ways to attempt to accomplish control where public institutions might have more difficulties in accomplishing.

Cryptocurrencies are currently just one small pebble in their shoe that sometimes reminds them that they need to do something, but they still don't mind so much that they resort to drastic measures. Realistically, all they need to do is declare cryptocurrencies illegal and ban all CEXs - how many people do you think would give up after that?

We are likely going to continue to see various levels of draconian measures, so surely if there is variation in jurisdictions, then there will also be some underground economies that end up playing out, since it continues to be quite difficult to create impervious barriers in regards to the movement of digits - so being against digits seems to be a losing battle, even though surely they might attempt to carry out such battle and some innocent people will get hurt, including folks who are discouraged from accumulating bitcoin for their own protection, wealth preservation and even financial self-sovereignty.  I am not even claiming that it is easy for individuals to figure out how to act or even to preserve their own bitcoin in self-custodial wallets in order to attempt to better deal with various ongoing draconian governmental measures.

[TryNinja]

By now, I think this mixer of a thing should have been put behind us, theymos will do anything that will make people think he didn't think it well before he acted, and for me, that decision was a perfect one. The repercussion he guarded against is different from the end-user discussion, but those who are advertising them.

Is it not better to safely advertise here and not be known to advertise what the government is clamping down on? Many must have missed the big money from mixers, but it can't be compared to shutting the forum for it.

I personally don't think the government would shutdown bitcointalk because some users, on their own, advertise for mixers on their signatures. But you never know...

Worst case I think just banning ANN threads would be suffice, because then you don't have the excuse of the forum allowing the mixers representatives to have a platform to discuss and maybe "operate" their business (as critics would say). Then allow each user to use whatever they want on their signatures *as long as it's not illegal* (AFAIK, mixers aren't illegal in the USA, where theymos cares the most about laws).

Despite the big mixers' money, how many big advertising outlets do you know that openly advertise for them?

Not many outlets advertise for gambling, porn, as well.

Mixers are very niche (crypto + privacy, two super niche things). The regular joe doesn't care about privacy and many hate crypto. And yes, some mixers were being shutdown exactly because they provide privacy, even for bad actors (like north korean hackers), so that's enough reason for advertising outlets to disallow them... but remember those outlets only care about their business, and don't care about promoting privacy, which is what this forum should look after instead of bending the knee.

[uchegod-21]

I don't know how you concluded that the EU was the reason for eXch's shutdown , but the US is still pursuing mixers on money laundering charges. The only difference is that they have stopped attacking end users.

I guess theymos might still give it a second go even if mixers are still being shutdown by agencies if it's proven that those agencies won't go after people putting a mere small banner below their posts about the service, just like they won't got for legitimate users that want privacy and are not hacking exchanges and phishing people.

There's no way an agency will be clamping on mixers and then turn blind eyes at the people promoting mixers, it will be a kind of contradiction of purpose. If there is a way that these mixers would be clamped down without mentioning where they advertise, it would have been fine. When chipmixer was taken down, Bitcointalk was mentioned as the place they advertise their project. That was the first time Bitcointalk trended for the wrong reasons.

The forum is dear to all of us including theymos, so there's no need gambling with it when we don't have a clear alternative. Things could change in few months time.

[TryNinja]

There's no way an agency will be clamping on mixers and then turn blind eyes at the people promoting mixers, it will be a kind of contradiction of purpose. If there is a way that these mixers would be clamped down without mentioning where they advertise, it would have been fine. When chipmixer was taken down, Bitcointalk was mentioned as the place they advertise their project. That was the first time Bitcointalk trended for the wrong reasons.

Well, let's see.

Blender.io = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum
Sinbad.io = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum
ChipMixer = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum
BestMixer = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum

All shutdown by agencies.

eXch also shutting down here because of a potential operation and they were advertised here, had an ANN, were super active, and even donated money to users here.


What happened to the forum and its users? Exactly, nothing.

And let's not forget: https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

Specifically, the Department will no longer target virtual currency
exchanges, mixing and tumbling services, and offline wallets for the acts of their end users or
unwitting violations of regulations-except to the extent the investigation is consistent with the
priorities articulated in the following paragraphs.

[uchegod-21]

Well, let's see.

Blender.io = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum
Sinbad.io = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum
ChipMixer = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum
BestMixer = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum

All shutdown by agencies.

eXch also shutting down here because of a potential operation and they were advertised here, had an ANN, were super active, and even donated money to users here.


What happened to the forum and its users? Exactly, nothing.

A nice chronicle.
Nothing happened and maybe nothing could have happened. But theymos is an American, I believe he acted based on some confidential information or unfriendly body language of the then Biden government.

And let's not forget: https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

Specifically, the Department will no longer target virtual currency
exchanges, mixing and tumbling services, and offline wallets for the acts of their end users or
unwitting violations of regulations-except to the extent the investigation is consistent with the
priorities articulated in the following paragraphs.

Enough reason for we to return to status quo but theymos is in a situation of once bitten... He doesn't want to trust our president easily 

[Sekhmet_]

Well, let's see.

Blender.io = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum
Sinbad.io = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum
ChipMixer = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum
BestMixer = advertised here + had an ANN + active user on the forum

All shutdown by agencies.

eXch also shutting down here because of a potential operation and they were advertised here, had an ANN, were super active, and even donated money to users here.

What happened to the forum and its users? Exactly, nothing.

You forgot the most important one: Silk Road

[joker_josue]

What happened to the forum and its users? Exactly, nothing.

Nothing happens, because normally users have no responsibility in the eyes of the authorities for the projects.

I compare the attack that mixes suffered to the same attack that Torrent sites suffered 15-20 years ago. Probably no user of these sites was arrested, because the crime was not on the user's side, but on the side of whoever made the content available. In the mix it was the same thing, the problem was not on the user's side, but on the side of those who provide the platform with no form of "control".

It is unlikely that the forum and its users will be accused of complicity in the abuse that these platforms allegedly commit. But that doesn't mean that the forum couldn't suffer some headaches, just to have to explain what was really happening here.

[EarnOnVictor]

By now, I think this mixer of a thing should have been put behind us, theymos will do anything that will make people think he didn't think it well before he acted, and for me, that decision was a perfect one. The repercussion he guarded against is different from the end-user discussion, but those who are advertising them.

Is it not better to safely advertise here and not be known to advertise what the government is clamping down on? Many must have missed the big money from mixers, but it can't be compared to shutting the forum for it.

I personally don't think the government would shutdown bitcointalk because some users, on their own, advertise for mixers on their signatures. But you never know...

This is an assumption, and we can't base the fate of the forum on that. Has the government banned advertisers simply for advertising certain products/services? Yes! This is not new.

Are those advertising the mixers through their signatures not advertisers? Where are they doing that if not inside Bitcointalk? For me, the risk was high, and theymos did the right thing.

Not many outlets advertise for gambling, porn, as well.

These are not accurate examples, you may not see gambling/porn adverts everywhere, for they are adult contents that might be offensive to many, unlike mixers. The government has clampdown on many mixers, how many lawful gambling/porn sites have the governmenet clampdown on? They are just incomparable.

[hugeblack]

This is an assumption, and we can't base the fate of the forum on that. Has the government banned advertisers simply for advertising certain products/services? Yes! This is not new.

Such an argument would be pointless, especially since some of @theymos'^[1] quotes have already been fulfilled, and mixers campaigns/links are running on the other forum ---> https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php.

Legal advice is the best solution, but after admin asked staff members to stop wearing eXch signature, I don't expect anything to happen in January.

Once again, Unless something new happens, continuing such discussions would be pointless.


[1]

For the mixer policy to be reversed, the legal environment would have to improve a lot. I think that one of these would have to happen:
 - Some mixers win their court cases.
 - Congress passes laws which explicitly protect mixers.
 - The administration ends up being extremely pro-privacy, better than 99% of politicians in office.

[EarnOnVictor]

This is an assumption, and we can't base the fate of the forum on that. Has the government banned advertisers simply for advertising certain products/services? Yes! This is not new.

Such an argument would be pointless, especially since some of @theymos'^[1] quotes have already been fulfilled, and mixers campaigns/links are running on the other forum ---> https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php.

Exactly what I started with, it should have been put behind us by now.

But wait a minute, are you comparing altcoinstalks with Bitcointalk? It's like comparing Elon Musk with some kind of peasant farmer. Also, they weren't created for the same purpose and don't have the same integrity to protect. Bitcointalk is better known and more honourable than you think, and such attracts the attention of authorities more.

Legal advice is the best solution

Funny! Bitcointalk will sue the authorities if they take action? Unforeseen drama should be avoided, and theymos did well on that.

[Smartvirus]

This is an assumption, and we can't base the fate of the forum on that. Has the government banned advertisers simply for advertising certain products/services? Yes! This is not new.

Such an argument would be pointless, especially since some of @theymos'^[1] quotes have already been fulfilled, and mixers campaigns/links are running on the other forum ---> https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php.

Exactly what I started with, it should have been put behind us by now.

But wait a minute, are you comparing altcoinstalks with Bitcointalk? It's like comparing Elon Musk with some kind of peasant farmer. Also, they weren't created for the same purpose and don't have the same integrity to protect. Bitcointalk is better known and more honourable than you think, and such attracts the attention of authorities more.

Exactly something I was looking at, having to bring up Altcointalk in respect to this discussion. There isn’t a yardstick we could use for any form of comparison here. Let’s not be ignorant of the fact that, once it gets big enough, then it’s fair game to be taken down by the government. Not that there haven’t been complaints on these mixers, I’m sure there would have been but, they only come into focus when they get too popular.

We might have a friendly government at the time which makes the decision on having mixers back really open but, let’s thread with caution and have a control in place.

[JollyGood]

I would not be surprised if Altcoinstalks owners/operators take a similar decision to theymos with regards to banning mixer but it seems highly unlikely now for two reasons. First is because the so-called crypto friendly US administration are making decisions. Second is because if they wanted to ban mixers they probably would have done it around the same time but they did not. As a precaution, the owners/operators might consider a ban on mixers or at least keep their options open.

Exactly something I was looking at, having to bring up Altcointalk in respect to this discussion. There isn’t a yardstick we could use for any form of comparison here. Let’s not be ignorant of the fact that, once it gets big enough, then it’s fair game to be taken down by the government. Not that there haven’t been complaints on these mixers, I’m sure there would have been but, they only come into focus when they get too popular.

We might have a friendly government at the time which makes the decision on having mixers back really open but, let’s thread with caution and have a control in place.

[LoyceV]

I would not be surprised if Altcoinstalks owners/operators take a similar decision to theymos with regards to banning mixer but it seems highly unlikely now for two reasons. First is because the so-called crypto friendly US administration are making decisions. Second is because if they wanted to ban mixers they probably would have done it around the same time but they did not. As a precaution, the owners/operators might consider a ban on mixers or at least keep their options open.

That site wouldn't have any active users if not for allowing them to advertise mixers after Bitcointalk banned them.

[Lucius]

I would not be surprised if Altcoinstalks owners/operators take a similar decision to theymos with regards to banning mixer but it seems highly unlikely now for two reasons. First is because the so-called crypto friendly US administration are making decisions. Second is because if they wanted to ban mixers they probably would have done it around the same time but they did not. As a precaution, the owners/operators might consider a ban on mixers or at least keep their options open.

That site wouldn't have any active users if not for allowing them to advertise mixers after Bitcointalk banned them.

I can agree that this forum would have a lot fewer users if mixers didn't advertise there, but the forum has been around since 2018 (if I'm not mistaken) and has a small but still active user base that was active even before mixers appeared there. In addition, it's not just mixers that are represented in sig campaigns, there are also a few gambling sites that have active campaigns.

Currently, only three mixers have active campaigns on that forum, the number of logged in users online is around 80+ at the moment, and on BTT around 190. It's not that big of a difference.

[JollyGood]

I do not think they have active members because mixers are banned here. The other forum has been around for years and many people did use it before the mixer ban. Most probably the numbers registering as new members and the traffic flow must have taken a turn when theymos banned mixers.

That site wouldn't have any active users if not for allowing them to advertise mixers after Bitcointalk banned them.