[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[tungfa]

[toknormal]

Wallet balances can be verified in ways that are only available to the owner of the funds, and any party he wishes to make that information available to.

It isn't the "owner" of the funds that requires the verification as far as endorsement of a base monetary system goes. In a trustless system, only public consensus can endorse the value and therefore it's the public that needs to verify it.

The public isn't going to endorse or verify any address balance that only the holder of a private key to that address can see. I know the "technology" endorses it but nobody gives a sh*t about that. They don't get in planes because they see an aerodynamic proof, they get in them because they see them taking off and landing again with their own eyes.

This nonsense you spout about applying privacy to the monetary media is garbage... and I challenge you to provide a single source for a definition of money from a respected source that includes it.

Includes what ? "applying privacy to the monetary media " ? All I've consistently said is that "privacy" (by concealment) does not feature in any recognised historical properties of money, rather that fungibility specifically does and that that cannot be substituted by monetary obscurity.

(b.t.w. I sure hope you don't consider yourself one of the experts with "background in economics / finance" you alluded to earlier).

[g4q34g4qg47ww]

Wallet balances can be verified in ways that are only available to the owner of the funds, and any party he wishes to make that information available to.

It isn't the "owner" of the funds that requires the verification as far as endorsement of a base monetary system goes. In a trustless system, only public consensus can endorse the value and therefore it's the public that needs to verify it.

Public consensus is in the form of the block-chain, and is verifiably accurate, whether or not you are able to snoop into everyone's balance.

The public isn't going to endorse or verify any address balance that only the holder of a private key to that address can see. I know the "technology" endorses it, but nobody gives a sh*t about that. They don't get on planes because they see an aerodynamic proof, they get in them because they see them taking off and landing again with their own eyes.

Again, the blockchain is verifiable.

This nonsense you spout about applying privacy to the monetary media is garbage... and I challenge you to provide a single source for a definition of money from a respected source that includes it.

Includes what ? "applying privacy to the monetary media " ? All I've consistently said is that "privacy" (by concealment) does not feature in any recognised historical properties of money, rather that fungibility specifically does and that that cannot be substituted by monetary obscurity.

Direct me to the part of your definition where it says "monetary obscurity can not be substituted for fungibility." Or that monetary obscurity does not qualify as fungibility...

(b.t.w. I sure hope you don't consider yourself one of the experts with "background in economics / finance" you alluded to earlier).

I sure don't. What i said was that I have a background in economics / finance, and it has provided me with the tools to decipher that you are a charlatan spouting self-serving non-sense.

[Lebubar]

Don't feed the Trollero pseudo-dev, please...

He got work to do.

[entertheabyss]

If you take the time to read every word toknormal writes and look up any concepts you need refreshing on, it becomes crystal clear that it is utterly self-serving garbage. The process is a lot quicker if you actually have a background in economics / finance. I can absolutely guarantee that the nonsense he spews about the definition of money is only his weird opinion, and not useful or intelligent. The fact the he pretends that it is some well agreed upon view, rather than just his verbal diarrhea makes him a charlatan.

what is actually quite impressive is the amount of people that agree with him.

[toknormal]

Public consensus is in the form of the block-chain, and is verifiably accurate, whether or not you are able to snoop into everyone's balance

You've kind of made my case for me simply by using that phrase "everyone's balance". A commonly used term of cryptonote promoters than implies the projection of a fiat style bank account onto a blockchain.

A blockchain is not a record of people's finances. It is a manifestation of un-counterfeitable electronic tokens, none of which are assigned to an "owner" nor any legal entity in the way that bank money is.

....again, the blockchain is verifiable.

An individual address is privately verifiable but the entire blockchain is not publicly verifiable. You can peek through a hole and inspect what the system asserts is at a specific address, but you cannot achieve a public consensus of that balance. Thats what makes the difference between a monetary token that, over time, accedes to a high level of security, adoption and monetary value, and one that doesn't.

Direct me to the part of your definition where it says "monetary obscurity can not be substituted for fungibility." Or that monetary obscurity does not qualify as fungibility...

Fungible is defined in Merriam-Webster as "capable of being substituted in place of one another". If everything is obscured then clearly everything is fungible by that definition, but it's about as useful a form of fungibility as the emperors clothes. Thats why I say that "monetary obscurity can not be substituted for fungibility".

What i said was that I have a background in economics / finance, and it has provided me with the tools to decipher that you are a charlatan spouting self-serving non-sense.

Good for you. I could do with some "deciphering tools" myself at times. I usually have to sit and think about things. May your hidden money bags and "deciphering tools" bring you riches. Meantime, I'm off to bed as it's that time in my part of the world  

[RenegadeMan]

Public consensus is in the form of the block-chain, and is verifiably accurate, whether or not you are able to snoop into everyone's balance

You've kind of made my case for me simply by using that phrase "everyone's balance". A commonly used term of cryptonote promoters than implies the projection of a fiat style bank account onto a blockchain.

A blockchain is not a record of people's finances. It is a manifestation of un-counterfeitable electronic tokens, none of which are assigned to an "owner" nor any legal entity in the way that bank money is.

....again, the blockchain is verifiable.

An individual address is privately verifiable but the entire blockchain is not publicly verifiable. You can peek through a hole and inspect what the system asserts is at a specific address, but you cannot achieve a public consensus of that balance. Thats what makes the difference between a monetary token that, over time, accedes to a high level of security, adoption and monetary value, and one that doesn't.

Direct me to the part of your definition where it says "monetary obscurity can not be substituted for fungibility." Or that monetary obscurity does not qualify as fungibility...

Fungible is defined in Merriam-Webster as "capable of being substituted in place of one another". If everything is obscured then clearly everything is fungible by that definition, but it's about as useful a form of fungibility as the emperors clothes. Thats why I say that "monetary obscurity can not be substituted for fungibility".

What i said was that I have a background in economics / finance, and it has provided me with the tools to decipher that you are a charlatan spouting self-serving non-sense.

Good for you. I could do with some "deciphering tools" myself at times. I usually have to sit and think about things. May your hidden money bags and "deciphering tools" bring you riches. Meantime, I'm off to bed as it's that time in my part of the world  

This has been a tremendously entertaining and interesting exchange Toknormal and g4q34g4qg47ww.

One of my pet hates is when people refer to their "expertise" (or suggested expertise) because of some level of academic achievement when they're in a forum that's attempting to solve problems that have been facilitated and catered for by some of the world's "top experts" in the field we're discussing; people who potentially have hung their entire careers off of the very same academic achievement.

What i said was that I have a background in economics / finance, and it has provided me with the tools to decipher that you are a charlatan spouting self-serving non-sense.

What I mean g4q34g4qg47ww is that Bitcoin and crypto in general (amongst other goals) is attempting to address the utter debt fueled/highly manipulated currency mess and resulting economic fiasco that our fiat-based central banking charlatans have created. And much of this realm has been catered to and provided for by top notch 'economists' who've used their 'background in economics / finance' to take the world to even greater levels of unsustainability and madness. I bet many dozens, if not hundreds (or thousand even) work at the Fed and the ECB. It's these people and their "thinking" on what money is and how it works that's done such irreparable damage.

So when you talk about your background in economics/finance giving you the tools to decipher that Toknormal is a charlatan spouting self-serving non-sense, I perceive that you're likely to be from a background that's part of the problem not the solution. Frankly if you now told us you have a PhD in Economics from Harvard you would go down in my estimation even more. It's Harvard, Wall Street, the Fed and all those greedy up-themselves individuals that are very much responsible for the drama we're experiencing and the travesty/tragedy yet to happen. What's needed are people with fresh thinking, a diverse and out-of-the-box education and an ability to think logically without constant need of validation by traditional schools-of-thought.

Unless you can come up with very specific, succinct and logical rebuttals to Toknormal's views (i.e. why the hidden balances on Monero's blockchain that Tok's pointing out is such a flawed approach in attempting to create a store of value that's 'money' is in fact NOT the problem he's saying it is), in my mind you're the one with the dubious claims. Just stating over and over again that

This nonsense you spout about applying privacy to the monetary media is garbage... and I challenge you to provide a single source for a definition of money from a respected source that includes it.

is pointless because all those 'sources' are often part of the problem as I've indicated. Toknormal is offering points of view on 'money' that you (and Monero people in general) don't like because it doesn't fit with your narrative of how a crypto should work (read: it doesn't fit with your narrative of how Monero works). That doesn't mean he's wrong and it certainly doesn't mean he's wrong if he doesn't provide you with a 'source' of someone defining money this way. But if you believe him to be as wrong as you're suggesting, state for us why he's wrong in as logical and fundamental fashion as Toknormal does when he's articulating his views on how this stuff works.

In other words, use logic and reason to demonstrate why hidden balances on a block chain are indeed NOT a problem in terms of Monero being 'money'. I understand this is no easy task but you've called Toknormal a charlatan for expressing these views and you've suggested they're easily negated by anyone that knows about economics and finance so you need to back-up what you're saying with something substantial.

Okay....I'm looking forward to your detailed explanation (i.e. put up or shut up).

[—]

Karples arrested

EDuffield is next.  The scam which is the Dash "oops we accidentally mined the first 2 million coins" fiasco is ripe for judicial review.

No wonder otoh is dumping his bags.  They are about to get very heavy, very quickly.  

otoh is dumping his bags because dash is trademark protected and it is not a matter of if but when masternode owners have legal issues at hand

Some of the companys holding dash trademarks:

Sony
Procter & Gamble
Amazon
http://www.trademarkia.com/dash-85097748.html
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/brand/dash-trade/2270
.....

Different countries different claims, a legal minefield.

Edit:
Also the Rothschild's owing Dash Commercial Finance LTD 2010 http://www.dash-finance.com/ part of https://www.rothschild.com/banking/asset_finance/

[alex-ru]

Please stop promoting Moner__ & Byteco__ shit in this DASH topic!

I understand that their adepts are so desperate they can't find an attention anywhere else... But why Dashers are helping them to post and promote here?

If you really want to discuss their shit - just report their ignorant posts to moderator - than go to their thread and discuss all this there...

Please keep this topic clean from their ignorant advertising!

[RenegadeMan]

Please stop promoting Moner__ & Byteco__ shit in this DASH topic!

I understand that their adepts are so desperate they can't find an attention anywhere else... But why Dashers are helping them to post and promote here?

If you really want to discuss their shit - just report their ignorant posts to moderator - than go to their thread and discuss all this there...

Please keep this topic clean from their ignorant advertising!

No one's "promoting" but sometimes when people come here and argue with long-term fundamentals of the type someone like Toknormal articulates, there's a valid debate to be had. "Exhibit A" above is the position g4q34g4qg47ww has taken with Tok's stance on monetary properties (and it's an extremely adversarial position that he needs to justify). It's entirely appropriate for that debate to be had because it's fundamentally important for anyone comparing Dash to Monero (or to the crypto note coins in general).

I think we certainly need to ignore the blatant never-ending trollism of people like Eduardo-iceshitter but some of the Monero people that come in here do put up points that are worth debating and they're not all bad points.

As for this

just report their ignorant posts to moderator

It's next to completely useless as an action. Even their blatant lies and damning mis-statements aren't ever addressed yet valid posts by others about world events (such as the Greek situation) and it's relevance to Dash are. Bottom line is it's not "our" forum and the rules are set by someone else.

[Kounselor]

Karples arrested

EDuffield is next.....

No wonder otoh...

You are bold man: being known and identifiable in RL by the community and still harassing, and making such accusations... Your acts are a crime in the place where I am from. (Does it show you have already nothing to loose?)

[Sub-Ether]

Please stop promoting Moner__ & Byteco__ shit in this DASH topic!

I understand that their adepts are so desperate they can't find an attention anywhere else... But why Dashers are helping them to post and promote here?

If you really want to discuss their shit - just report their ignorant posts to moderator - than go to their thread and discuss all this there...

Please keep this topic clean from their ignorant advertising!

Agreed, am not interested in discussing how Monero functions, we don't go into their thread and start fanatically going on and on about their coin ad nauseum , I have most of them on ignore because they are troll-like, boring, infantile and predictable in their comments.
(and this comment will result in even more misinformed agenda ridden spam, trolololol)

~~Peace to all~~

[Freckleg]

I used to read and post everyday here. Still good the thread is bumped by our dear trolls, always good for publicity. Since sometime I notice dashtalk.org is becoming my primary visit in the interest of discussing Dash. With more than 3100 members, 54k of messages and growing each day, it is information heaven compared to this troll bumped thread. But still fun to read so carry on all ;-)

[tungfa]

Mark Karpeles Soon To Face Mt. Gox Criminal Fraud Charges
     

http://cointelegraph.com/news/115029/mark-karpeles-soon-to-face-mt-gox-criminal-fraud-charges?ref=2604&utm_source=fb&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=alx

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/business/dealbook/mark-karpeles-mt-gox-bitcoin-arrested.html?_r=0

[RenegadeMan]

Mark Karpeles Soon To Face Mt. Gox Criminal Fraud Charges
     

http://cointelegraph.com/news/115029/mark-karpeles-soon-to-face-mt-gox-criminal-fraud-charges?ref=2604&utm_source=fb&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=alx

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/business/dealbook/mark-karpeles-mt-gox-bitcoin-arrested.html?_r=0

One wonders whether the Japanese authorities have done extensive forensic analysis and now have enough evidence to be sure he's implicitly involved in the 'theft" of bitcoin as opposed to the story of hackers having taken the 200,000 (or whatever it was claimed to be)

or

whether they're just under so much pressure to "do something" they've just caved, arrested him and will be working on the assumption that everyone will pretty much believe "he done it" therefore they (the authorities) will be off the hook somewhat.

My gut instinct tells me it's more likely to be the latter.

[illodin]

What I don't understand is all the time spent on trying to convince people that Dash is not up to the job. Huge amounts of time, just wasted.

The direct approach would be to break Dash and say: See, broke it. Told ya. Move on. Nothing more to see here.

I don't believe Darksend and InstantX evolution is finished yet. A lot of improvements can still be done to Darksend especially. For example adding CCT would open up a lot of optimization and improvement possibilities.

If CCT and masternode blinding were implemented, we could do with lesser rounds of mixing (and faster as the denomination sizes don't have to match), and for example perhaps with clever use of contracts a user could just fire-and-forget Darksend non-anonymized coins and the masternode network would keep the mixing process alive until the coins are mixed after which broadcasting the actual transaction.

The blockchain funding might attract more development talent to make such improvements possible.

[tungfa]

HarmonyVibe now accepting Dash
 
http://www.harmonyvibe.com

[eduffield]

TESTNET UPDATE - (ONLY TESTNET)

DOWNGRADE TEST - 0.11.2.23

I'm happy to announce that v12 looks like it's finished and is very stable! The final test we will need to do is to downgrade the network to 0.11.2.23, then re-upgrade to 12.0.35. The final version will activate a hard fork and the budget system within a day of being launched. Then after a few days (probably about Wednesday), we'll launch v12 officially on mainnet!

Instructions:

1. Please download the official client from dashpay.io
2. Go into dash.conf and add "txindex=1" (our database has this on by default now)
3. Start the client with --reindex
4. Start masternodes anything else you had running

The reindex will send us back to the last valid block before v12 became active last time, so we might need to recreate masternodes. However, when we upgrade from 11.2.23 to 12.0 they should still function correctly.

Thanks so much for helping with testing and the hard work you've put in! You've all made this release a great success already.

-Evan

https://dashtalk.org/threads/v12-testing-thread.5484/page-104

[qwizzie]

TESTNET UPDATE - (ONLY TESTNET)

DOWNGRADE TEST - 0.11.2.23

I'm happy to announce that v12 looks like it's finished and is very stable! The final test we will need to do is to downgrade the network to 0.11.2.23, then re-upgrade to 12.0.35. The final version will activate a hard fork and the budget system within a day of being launched. Then after a few days (probably about Wednesday), we'll launch v12 officially on mainnet!

Instructions:

1. Please download the official client from dashpay.io
2. Go into dash.conf and add "txindex=1" (our database has this on by default now)
3. Start the client with --reindex
4. Start masternodes anything else you had running

The reindex will send us back to the last valid block before v12 became active last time, so we might need to recreate masternodes. However, when we upgrade from 11.2.23 to 12.0 they should still function correctly.

Thanks so much for helping with testing and the hard work you've put in! You've all made this release a great success already.

-Evan

https://dashtalk.org/threads/v12-testing-thread.5484/page-104

one big step closer to concluding the testing of v12 and making it ready for mainnet, thanks for the update

[Minotaur26]

What I don't understand is all the time spent on trying to convince people that Dash is not up to the job. Huge amounts of time, just wasted.

The direct approach would be to break Dash and say: See, broke it. Told ya. Move on. Nothing more to see here.

I don't believe Darksend and InstantX evolution is finished yet. A lot of improvements can still be done to Darksend especially. For example adding CCT would open up a lot of optimization and improvement possibilities.

If CCT and masternode blinding were implemented, we could do with lesser rounds of mixing (and faster as the denomination sizes don't have to match), and for example perhaps with clever use of contracts a user could just fire-and-forget Darksend non-anonymized coins and the masternode network would keep the mixing process alive until the coins are mixed after which broadcasting the actual transaction.

The blockchain funding might attract more development talent to make such improvements possible.

Totally, the user oriented features like InstantX and Darksend, will continue to evolve and be improved upon there is a clear roadmap for that.  The end user oriented features are the ones that are always more publicized and discussed.

But there is a more fundamental layer, that was the main focus of v12, that is crucial for the long term viability of the project, and it includes  network infrastructure, funding, decision making, volunteering etc. Many projects ignore these fundamental aspects that answer questions like:

1. How are we going to build a large network of full nodes?
2. How are we going to keep developers, active team members, volunteers, community members and users engaged long term?
3. How are we going to take decisions on direction as a group in an orderly way?
4. How are we going to fund development, promotion and public awareness of the project?
5. How are we going to keep mining inclusive and interesting for GPU mining hobbyist?

All these aspects are not really end user oriented but are the base upon which the whole project is built and what guarantees that we will have the means to continue improving our added value features and user friendliness. By v12 Dash has implemented a proposed solution for all of these fundamental things, it will still take a few months for the new governance system to mature, among other things, but Dash is facing critical issues and being assertive in approaching them in an original way.  That is what keeps investors and supporters engaged, Dash is moving forward with intention. The removal of the reference node for payments is a really important milestone that many said could not be done.

The next step after v12 is going back to work on our end user oriented features, improving Darksend, InstantX, mobile wallets and adding new functionality. Also as a community we will need some time to learn and adapt to all the new things that are coming with v12. We will also start to educate the public more about what we are doing.

About trolling and smearing in the context of this forum, that is just the ugly part of an anonymous internet forum, but no project with substance will fail or succeed from forum discussion whether positive or negative. It is easy to feel like a lot of people know about the altcoin projects from spending time here, reality is there is almost no awareness about the scene outside of this place and it's our responsibility to change that.

We should measure our progress in terms of real world awareness of the project which is still very limited but is a high priority for the team and the community. Creating and distributing more material about the technology and collaborating with the media to inform the public about Dash will be one of the main objectives we would like to pursue over the next year.