[XMR] Monero Speculation

[guesswho1234]

I wouldn't. Of course, in my country cryptocurrency profits are for free because the high court of the EU declared cryptos as a currency (if you go on holidays outside of the eurozone, you don't pay taxes either for the foreign fiat currency you buy right?)
If the situation is different in your country, I'd argue that they aren't realized profits yet until you convert to fiat? You could still lose it all (from their perspective) so would be useless to pay taxes on income you never realized right?
But I'm not a lawyer.

In the US this is kind of a grey area. The question is whether exchanging one crypto for another is a "like kind" transaction. If you sell one pasture and buy another that is considered a like kind transaction and you don't have to pay taxes, you just carry the basis forward. But if you sell one stock and buy another that is specifically not considered like kind and you have to pay taxes.

The IRS hasn't ruled on crypto as like kind or not, but most people who have looked into it, including myself, think it's not. So if you sell appreciated Bitcoin to buy Monero you have to pay taxes on your gain in Bitcoin.  Even if you decide to claim like kind on crypto transactions you have to report the transaction to the IRS, so they will know who to come after when they finally make a ruling.

The one thing you do not want to do is fail to declare your crypto transactions to the IRS. They WILL find you.

So what are you going to do when you buy a few ripple and it skyrockets and it hits your limit sell order and immediately back through your buy order a bit lower but a bit later your stop loss market order is hit and you divide some between stellar and convert some to XMR. And a bit later you cash out of stellar and buy something. And each time you change crypto you have to go through BTC first. And that was in 3 minutes

How the hell do you fill that in your tax declaration?

calculate your gains/losses with this https://bitcoin.tax/

then simply report a capital gain or loss on your taxes.

if you dont want to fill out so much data and just want a quick overview over your profit/loss you can check out my little project (works for poloniex traders and  ms excel 2016 only)

https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=1545898.msg15540584#msg15540584

[InOneOutTwo]

Damn I wish I kept this when I had it for $6-8...

[sp_skeptic]

Playing Devils advocate here.  Where do you get the value of bitcoin at time your trade is made?  Since bitcoin can vary by a hundred or more

That is a problem for which I'm pretty sure there's no official IRS answer. I downloaded daily Bitcoin prices (I think from Quandl) and used those. Since the IRS doesn't provide guidance for this I would hope that I'm ok as long as I use a consistent source and don't cherrypick the Bitcoin values.

[chilly2k]

Playing Devils advocate here.  Where do you get the value of bitcoin at time your trade is made?  Since bitcoin can vary by a hundred or more

That is a problem for which I'm pretty sure there's no official IRS answer. I downloaded daily Bitcoin prices (I think from Quandl) and used those. Since the IRS doesn't provide guidance for this I would hope that I'm ok as long as I use a consistent source and don't cherrypick the Bitcoin values.

   If it ever gets to this point, you'll be getting 1099's from your exchange of choice, and there will be no more trading in the US without a taxpayer ID.  When you see that, then it's time to worry, or maybe they'll have figured out how it should be reported by then.  Until that time, try to report it as you see fit, and you should be fine. 

   The IRS isn't really a big bad machine.  I had issues in the past, I was able to make my case, and almost took it to tax court to get it documented, but instead settled it.  It wasn't as scary as you would think, and eventually they saw the error of their ways... 

   This might be getting a little off topic for the Monero spec thread, but had to see what others are doing.  Thanks for the input. 

[elrippo]

Oohhh (i)my god, you are playing with (ii)your life right now 

i) AT EASE.

ii) How much, and which one?

You seem to have rough times in front of you....
Try to ease up a little bit and get some sleep Risto, would be a good idea  

[Whtwabbit]

>$100 USD does not sound that crazy for XMR anymore.

I remember fantasising that Monero may get to $10 one day, my fantasy was destroyed by reality, I'm going to move that outrageous dream to $400

Dreamers gotta dream

[explorer]

>$100 USD does not sound that crazy for XMR anymore.

I remember fantasising that Monero may get to $10 one day, my fantasy was destroyed by reality, I'm going to move that outrageous dream to $400

Dreamers gotta dream

I like to look more than 18 months ahead 

[Zegra]

Now that seems like a lot. But Bitcoin is only at 1500-1600 euros now.
Will 400 still seem like a lot when Bitcoin reaches 5000 euros? I don't think so.

[Billy Bunter]

I strongly advise owning your crypto in an after-tax retirement account, so that gains are tax-free.

Aminorex, can you advise how to do that? Specifically, if I have a Roth IRA at Fidelity, how do I use that to manage my Monero?

Many thanks.

[KeyJockey]

Now that seems like a lot. But Bitcoin is only at 1500-1600 euros now.
Will 400 still seem like a lot when Bitcoin reaches 5000 euros? I don't think so.

My "hope" numbers nowadays are something like BTC $10,000 and XMR about $400

And, yes, that's not "proportional" being only about 7X for HoneyBadger, but about 15X for HoneyPony (being as how XMR has so much more unrealized potential).

Downside?  I'd expect we'll never see BTC below about $600 again --worst-case scenario-- *unless* it goes all the way to $0 in some catastrophic failure.

And maybe XMR won't ever get back down below, say maybe like $7 or $8 bucks??  Not so sure about this one though, what do you guys think?

[Zegra]

There hasn't been a serious altcoin bubble bursting since the rise of Monero the last year AFAIK. So we have no past data to learn from. I know I'm buying everything I can permit myself between 10-15 euros though in such an event.

[Majormax]

There hasn't been a serious altcoin bubble bursting since the rise of Monero the last year AFAIK. So we have no past data to learn from. I know I'm buying everything I can permit myself between 10-15 euros though in such an event.

This will only be the second serious bubble. It is already at a very late stage : there are many coins with dead blockchains trading huge volumes and price (exactly as before).

The burst of the first, in early 2014, was chaotic, and liquidity drained rapidly from every altcoin into BTC, the only 'safe haven' at the time... The best actively developed coins were hit hard, and recovered very slowly, the dead ones carried on down.

This time it will be instructive to see which of the really big coins are considered 'safe havens' , and which are not.

[CTTE]

I strongly advise owning your crypto in an after-tax retirement account, so that gains are tax-free.

Aminorex, can you advise how to do that? Specifically, if I have a Roth IRA at Fidelity, how do I use that to manage my Monero?

Many thanks.

Aminorex can probably give a much better answer to this since it sounds like he's already done it but in the meantime, here's what I found.

I've just started to look at this option for myself and it comes down to creating a Self Directed IRA (ROTH) with checkbook control.  I've seen it explained at https://www.broadfinancial.com/self-directed-ira/ where they set up an LLC explicitly to hold crypto and other assets and then your IRA invests in the LLC which you manage personally, allowing you to fully control your investments directly without having to pay someone fees for every transaction you want to make while waiting for days for it to actually happen.  It seems like a pretty good idea if you believe your investments will grow as much in the future as monero has in the past year or two. So, if your 10,000 Monero that you buy for $30 end up being $1200 each, your gain is completely tax free!

I mentioned Broad Financial but, I don't know how many others are out there that do the same thing maybe with better options, they were just the first firm that showed up in my search so don't take it as a recommendation.

Edit: If anybody has done this and can recommend a good company to work with, that would be  very helpful.

[aminorex]

And maybe XMR won't ever get back down below, say maybe like $7 or $8 bucks??  Not so sure about this one though, what do you guys think?

If someone dumps enough of anything it can go to zero, but only very briefly.  At 7-8$ I would be filling my bags w ith both hands, and telling all my friends.  But so would thousands (in future, millions) of others.

[aminorex]

Madisontrust.com is the web site of the custodian of record for Broad Financial.  I used them.  Constructing an operating agreement for the LLC is a bit...levered.  it is probably worth paying for advice on that, if you can.

If your crypto is in a Roth you can't use it, but you can borrow cash from the account, and pay yourself back with interest, potentially on a rather long-term plan. Again, the subtlet is suggest legal advice is warranted.  After age 59.5 there are no limits on withdrawals.  Inheritance can be complicated, so consult a professional about that, too.  (Or at least give seed words to your inheritors or executors, so they can dominate any arguments.)

[Wekkel]

And maybe XMR won't ever get back down below, say maybe like $7 or $8 bucks??  Not so sure about this one though, what do you guys think?

If someone dumps enough of anything it can go to zero, but only very briefly.  At 7-8$ I would be filling my bags w ith both hands, and telling all my friends.  But so would thousands (in future, millions) of others.

This but no point in telling friends but the bravest. It's still an extremely risky bet compared to regular investing.

[cryptimus prime]

From the aspect of technical analysis there are two very bullish patterns overlapping for XMR.

One is the cup and handle: https://www.tradingview.com/chart/XMRBTC/46BzGzOV-XMR-BTC-Parabolic-Breakout/

The other one is the ascending triangle: https://www.tradingview.com/chart/XMRBTC/5qGjmJnb-Monero-Ascending-Triangle-Bullish-XMR-LONG/

This technical aspects then further overlap with many updates to come: MyMonero App, Multisig, Kovri (big game changer).

And all this overlaps with a high possibility of XMR beeing integrated into Coinbase/GDAX and presented to a base of 6 million customers as they want to grow the diversity of the digital asset available for trade. And yes Coinbase can implement XMR as US based company, there is no problem with that, as Kraken could also and they are in San Francisco (US, California jurisdiction). Don`t let liars, trolls and misinformations misguide you.

And yes XMR is the only coin which is not overpumped like other alts, so it would also be a safe haven when BTC dips.

So when looking at this picture hollistically you may think as an owner or buyer of XMR you are sitting on a pile of gold.
I think its even better.

[antw081]

Inheritance can be complicated, so consult a professional about that, too.  (Or at least give seed words to your inheritors or executors, so they can dominate any arguments.)

This is a good point. When XMR is one day worth $100, $500 or $1000 USD in the years to come. You gonna maybe want to let someone know how to access that juicy XMR wallet(s) just in case you die suddenly (car accident, heart attack etc).

Who to trust the keys to your wallet? I would prefer no one knows until I am actually dead.

Sorry, a bit off-topic I realised.

[Quicken]

Hi all,
Great to see another ATH. I'm not looking to sell right now, but I am looking for information/advice on direct XMR to fiat conversion for large sums.

It seems that services include Kraken, Bitfinex, and maybe Bitsquare.

Does anyone have any experience using these services? KYC issues? Withdrawal limits? Security? Privacy?
Best, Q

No Bitfinex they have closed fiat withdrawals for some time now. Best is Kraken, but ofcourse you will have no anonimity there.

Thanks Febo. I don't need anonymity for this. You don't get that through the Poloniex -> Circle/Uphold route anyway, and I'm paying the Capital Gains Tax due.

It would be nice if Kraken would produce more fiat trading pairs than the current XMR/EUR and XMR/USD, but it's possible to manage that with an international currency account.

I don't see withdrawal limits on the Kraken faq, or anywhere else I looked on the website. When one wants to move six figures of name-your-currency it becomes a big issue. Anyone able to provide this info?
Cheers, Q

[coinits]

Inheritance can be complicated, so consult a professional about that, too.  (Or at least give seed words to your inheritors or executors, so they can dominate any arguments.)

This is a good point. When XMR is one day worth $100, $500 or $1000 USD in the years to come. You gonna maybe want to let someone know how to access that juicy XMR wallet(s) just in case you die suddenly (car accident, heart attack etc).

Who to trust the keys to your wallet? I would prefer no one knows until I am actually dead.

Sorry, a bit off-topic I realised.

That is what estate lawyers are for. You can leave the keys to the wallet(s) to someone that do not get to see them until you are actually dead. The legal firm must be trustworthy and, beleive it or not, most are.