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jimmothy
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May 14, 2014, 08:14:01 PM |
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I'm talking about x3s($6000/3.6th). X1s will always be slightly more expensive per gh being a small device (requiring more parts per chip)
3.6 TH/s is a bit optimistic at this point. They don't have a single X-3 running at full speed yet. True. And until then it is somewhat pointless arguing about compensation since we really don't know what they will be shipping us. But all I'm saying is we are not getting ripped off here. BA is very close if not ahead of the competition in terms of cost/gh/efficiency. |
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jimmothy
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May 14, 2014, 08:22:38 PM |
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The $ per GH can only be calculated based on current market conditions, aka what they are currently advertised/sold for...so...
According to BA's website an
X-1
100 GH/s for $373 ------> $3.73 $/GH
X-3
2000 GH/s for 5949.15 ------> $2.97 $/GH
We are currently being given 50% on top of that so... (Keep in mind a new order today would not get that extra 50%)
X-1
150 GH/s for $373 ------> $2.49 $/GH
X-3
3000 GH/s for $5949.15 ------> $1.98 $/GH
What I paid so... (This will probably be different than what you paid)
I bought 8 X-1's (with compensation 1200 GH/s) for $2,919.60 or -------> $2.43 $/GH
COMPETITION (Only miners currently out)
Antminer
S1 (.468 * 450 = 210.60 per unit) + (Assume $60 for a PSU)
180 GH/s for $270.60 ------> $1.50 $/GH
S2 (Assume $400 coupon as everyone has one)
1000 GH/s for $1989 ------> $1.989 $/GH
More to Come (If I feel like doing others, feel free to add on if you want)
Moral of the story, BA is over $2/GH with the current compensation model (assuming you have an even number of units and you get the PSU for free. (To be honest I forgot to add in the extra cost for the PSU and now I dont want to go back and do it, may do it later)), the S1 is under $2/GH even adding in a $60 PSU.
EDIT: I understand this does not take into account efficiency, and only shows what Bobsag has posted pictures of which is 2 chips running at 200 GH/s
This is assuming 100gh which is what was tested at ss corner. I assume they can at least reach 120gh at tt corner. (which I believe was already tested before) |
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jedimstr
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May 14, 2014, 08:27:59 PM |
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The $ per GH can only be calculated based on current market conditions, aka what they are currently advertised/sold for...so...
According to BA's website an
X-1
100 GH/s for $373 ------> $3.73 $/GH
X-3
2000 GH/s for 5949.15 ------> $2.97 $/GH
We are currently being given 50% on top of that so... (Keep in mind a new order today would not get that extra 50%)
X-1
150 GH/s for $373 ------> $2.49 $/GH
X-3
3000 GH/s for $5949.15 ------> $1.98 $/GH
What I paid so... (This will probably be different than what you paid)
I bought 8 X-1's (with compensation 1200 GH/s) for $2,919.60 or -------> $2.43 $/GH
COMPETITION (Only miners currently out)
Antminer
S1 (.468 * 450 = 210.60 per unit) + (Assume $60 for a PSU)
180 GH/s for $270.60 ------> $1.50 $/GH
S2 (Assume $400 coupon as everyone has one)
1000 GH/s for $1989 ------> $1.989 $/GH
More to Come (If I feel like doing others, feel free to add on if you want)
Moral of the story, BA is over $2/GH with the current compensation model (assuming you have an even number of units and you get the PSU for free. (To be honest I forgot to add in the extra cost for the PSU and now I dont want to go back and do it, may do it later)), the S1 is under $2/GH even adding in a $60 PSU.
EDIT: I understand this does not take into account efficiency, and only shows what Bobsag has posted pictures of which is 2 chips running at 200 GH/s
This is assuming 100gh which is what was tested at ss corner. I assume they can at least reach 120gh at tt corner. (which I believe was already tested before) Yea but even their thread says advertised from $2.97 GH/s. So I do not see a reason to adjust this until they are as confident in that as they seem to be at 100 GH/s Also keep in mind that that's advertised speed versus "what it can overclock to". If you want to play that game, as Jimmothy seems to want you to, then you should adjust the S1 numbers because most can easily hit around 200 GH (various overclock values from 375 - 400 Mhz). And those are proven, long since shipped, in hand, with many overclocked at that speed since the beginning of this year. So, if the X-1 comparison is at 120GH, use 200GH for S1. That's fair. |
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Syke
Legendary
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Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
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May 14, 2014, 08:39:13 PM |
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But all I'm saying is we are not getting ripped off here. BA is very close if not ahead of the competition in terms of cost/gh/efficiency.
The current compensation plan is about right if they ship everything next week. It's naive to think they actually will ship then. They should have demoed a full X-3 running by this point. It's safe to say a lot of people are rightly concerned about continued delays. |
Buy & Hold
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jimmothy
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May 14, 2014, 08:47:23 PM |
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Also keep in mind that that's advertised speed versus "what it can overclock to".
If you want to play that game, as Jimmothy seems to want you to, then you should adjust the S1 numbers because most can easily hit around 200 GH (various overclock values from 375 - 400 Mhz). And those are proven, long since shipped, in hand, with many overclocked at that speed since the beginning of this year. So, if the X-1 comparison is at 120GH, use 200GH for S1. That's fair.
I don't see it as playing games. I see it as a fair comparison. S1 at $1.35/gh is a great deal (possibly the best?) but 2w/gh is not very good. X3 would need to be overclocked to 150gh to match the S1s price. But all I'm saying is we are not getting ripped off here. BA is very close if not ahead of the competition in terms of cost/gh/efficiency.
The current compensation plan is about right if they ship everything next week. It's naive to think they actually will ship then. They should have demoed a full X-3 running by this point. It's safe to say a lot of people are rightly concerned about continued delays. True. But if they don't ship reasonably soon don't you think they would up the compensation? |
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ChuckBuck
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May 14, 2014, 08:50:12 PM |
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Also keep in mind that that's advertised speed versus "what it can overclock to".
If you want to play that game, as Jimmothy seems to want you to, then you should adjust the S1 numbers because most can easily hit around 200 GH (various overclock values from 375 - 400 Mhz). And those are proven, long since shipped, in hand, with many overclocked at that speed since the beginning of this year. So, if the X-1 comparison is at 120GH, use 200GH for S1. That's fair.
I don't see it as playing games. I see it as a fair comparison. S1 at $1.35/gh is a great deal (possibly the best?) but 2w/gh is not very good. X3 would need to be overclocked to 150gh to match the S1s price. But all I'm saying is we are not getting ripped off here. BA is very close if not ahead of the competition in terms of cost/gh/efficiency.
The current compensation plan is about right if they ship everything next week. It's naive to think they actually will ship then. They should have demoed a full X-3 running by this point. It's safe to say a lot of people are rightly concerned about continued delays. What do you think all this bitching and moaning is for, genius? They're not going to ship reasonably soon, so we're trying to get them to up the compensation. |
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jedimstr
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May 14, 2014, 08:51:55 PM |
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Also keep in mind that that's advertised speed versus "what it can overclock to".
If you want to play that game, as Jimmothy seems to want you to, then you should adjust the S1 numbers because most can easily hit around 200 GH (various overclock values from 375 - 400 Mhz). And those are proven, long since shipped, in hand, with many overclocked at that speed since the beginning of this year. So, if the X-1 comparison is at 120GH, use 200GH for S1. That's fair.
I don't see it as playing games. I see it as a fair comparison. S1 at $1.35/gh is a great deal (possibly the best?) but 2w/gh is not very good. X3 would need to be overclocked to 150gh to match the S1s price. Playing games, fair comparison...semantics... either way, I agree that you should compare on a level playing field. Advertised speed vs. Advertised speed and stable Overclock settings vs. stable Overclock settings. You should also keep in mind that you should compare the price at the actual shipped/arrival ETA dates. Since the S1's seem to be priced lower and lower every day, assume that today's price will not be the S1 price when the X1's are shipping. |
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jimmothy
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May 14, 2014, 08:54:16 PM |
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What do you think all this bitching and moaning is for, genius?
They're not going to ship reasonably soon, so we're trying to get them to up the compensation.
How do you know when/what compensation they will be shipping? Do you have a magic crystal ball? I'd rather wait until deadlines are missed before starting my tirade. |
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sorehammer
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May 14, 2014, 08:55:36 PM |
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Problem is what's the deadline no one has given new one.
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jimmothy
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May 14, 2014, 08:56:15 PM |
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Also keep in mind that that's advertised speed versus "what it can overclock to".
If you want to play that game, as Jimmothy seems to want you to, then you should adjust the S1 numbers because most can easily hit around 200 GH (various overclock values from 375 - 400 Mhz). And those are proven, long since shipped, in hand, with many overclocked at that speed since the beginning of this year. So, if the X-1 comparison is at 120GH, use 200GH for S1. That's fair.
I don't see it as playing games. I see it as a fair comparison. S1 at $1.35/gh is a great deal (possibly the best?) but 2w/gh is not very good. X3 would need to be overclocked to 150gh to match the S1s price. Playing games, fair comparison...semantics... either way, I agree that you should compare on a level playing field. Advertised speed vs. Advertised speed and stable Overclock settings vs. stable Overclock settings. You should also keep in mind that you should compare the price at the actual shipped/arrival ETA dates. Since the S1's seem to be priced lower and lower every day, assume that today's price will not be the S1 price when the X1's are shipping. True. But eventually they will have to stop lowering the price of the S1. Without slave labor I have no idea how they can produce and sell for so cheap. |
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jedimstr
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May 14, 2014, 08:58:10 PM |
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What do you think all this bitching and moaning is for, genius?
They're not going to ship reasonably soon, so we're trying to get them to up the compensation.
How do you know when/what compensation they will be shipping? Do you have a magic crystal ball? I'd rather wait until deadlines are missed before starting my tirade. I thought the whole thread of tirades was because they missed deadline after deadline? In what way are they on-time? Moving the ball down the calendar multiple times with updates does not constitute being on time. Or am I just crazy here? |
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y_boonstra
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May 14, 2014, 08:58:42 PM |
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Iff they will need another 2 / 3 weeks before they ship we will see 1 or 2 diff jumps AGAIN.. wich will put us around 12+ Bil ..
THATS 4X + the initail diff @ the time we should have gotten them..!!
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y_boonstra
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May 14, 2014, 09:00:27 PM |
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Also keep in mind that that's advertised speed versus "what it can overclock to".
If you want to play that game, as Jimmothy seems to want you to, then you should adjust the S1 numbers because most can easily hit around 200 GH (various overclock values from 375 - 400 Mhz). And those are proven, long since shipped, in hand, with many overclocked at that speed since the beginning of this year. So, if the X-1 comparison is at 120GH, use 200GH for S1. That's fair.
I don't see it as playing games. I see it as a fair comparison. S1 at $1.35/gh is a great deal (possibly the best?) but 2w/gh is not very good. X3 would need to be overclocked to 150gh to match the S1s price. Playing games, fair comparison...semantics... either way, I agree that you should compare on a level playing field. Advertised speed vs. Advertised speed and stable Overclock settings vs. stable Overclock settings. You should also keep in mind that you should compare the price at the actual shipped/arrival ETA dates. Since the S1's seem to be priced lower and lower every day, assume that today's price will not be the S1 price when the X1's are shipping. True. But eventually they will have to stop lowering the price of the S1. Without slave labor I have no idea how they can produce and sell for so cheap. Do you realy think producing a ant miner is expensive? hell the can sell you a TV for less than what an ant miner cost + it has way more parts and laybor in it. |
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jedimstr
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May 14, 2014, 09:01:02 PM |
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Also keep in mind that that's advertised speed versus "what it can overclock to".
If you want to play that game, as Jimmothy seems to want you to, then you should adjust the S1 numbers because most can easily hit around 200 GH (various overclock values from 375 - 400 Mhz). And those are proven, long since shipped, in hand, with many overclocked at that speed since the beginning of this year. So, if the X-1 comparison is at 120GH, use 200GH for S1. That's fair.
I don't see it as playing games. I see it as a fair comparison. S1 at $1.35/gh is a great deal (possibly the best?) but 2w/gh is not very good. X3 would need to be overclocked to 150gh to match the S1s price. Playing games, fair comparison...semantics... either way, I agree that you should compare on a level playing field. Advertised speed vs. Advertised speed and stable Overclock settings vs. stable Overclock settings. You should also keep in mind that you should compare the price at the actual shipped/arrival ETA dates. Since the S1's seem to be priced lower and lower every day, assume that today's price will not be the S1 price when the X1's are shipping. True. But eventually they will have to stop lowering the price of the S1. Without slave labor I have no idea how they can produce and sell for so cheap. They can sell so cheap because these were already mined on by Bitmain for a long time... even if they made just a penny on selling their S1's they'd already be profitable for them since they seem to be selling old inventory (true for at least a large portion of the ones they've sold, I've gotten ones that look used for months and ones that look brand spanking new). The S2's are more expensive because they're actually brand new (except maybe some of the Batch 1 and 2 PSU's which had some examples of dusty old used units.... new orders seem to actually have new PSUs). |
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jimmothy
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May 14, 2014, 09:13:54 PM |
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What do you think all this bitching and moaning is for, genius?
They're not going to ship reasonably soon, so we're trying to get them to up the compensation.
How do you know when/what compensation they will be shipping? Do you have a magic crystal ball? I'd rather wait until deadlines are missed before starting my tirade. I thought the whole thread of tirades was because they missed deadline after deadline? In what way are they on-time? Moving the ball down the calendar multiple times with updates does not constitute being on time. Or am I just crazy here? Afaik they have upped compensation each time a deadline was missed. They can sell so cheap because these were already mined on by Bitmain for a long time... I somewhat doubt this. They might be self mining but considering they sold more than 20% of the network I find it unlikely that a majority of the s1s are used. |
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jimmothy
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May 14, 2014, 10:20:58 PM |
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Nope, they have upped the Compensation once and that was before May 1st.
Literally 4 whole days before may 1st.. You don't think they knew they would miss the may 1st deadline by then? |
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btcminer84
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May 14, 2014, 11:57:08 PM
Last edit: May 15, 2014, 12:30:21 AM by btcminer84 |
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I have send a REFUND request for my (Batch 1) Orders #2120 and #4421 right now via the BlackArrow Ticket System as well as per PM here on asktom.cf referring to the Ticket IDs. I paid for the X-3 back in November 2013. I still got no shipping or anything else.
For me, the refund is the better way due to customs and other taxes and high power costs (Europe) in the future of this issue.
If there is no refund answer from BlackArrowSoftware (HK, first order) or Destino Limited (UK, X-3 PSU order) until this month I call a lawyer.
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dspiel
Newbie
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Activity: 29
Merit: 0
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May 15, 2014, 12:07:59 AM |
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I ordered 1 X-1 with batch 1 and i am looking at profitability and its never going to happen unless BTC value goes back up. Debating whether to ask for a refund or order another at 50% off. I'm sure its been asked but if we paid with BTC are we getting a refund in BTC or USD?
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tracyhh
Member
Offline
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
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May 15, 2014, 02:24:09 AM |
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I emailed you [email protected], wait a long time but no one reply, and I emailed you again, and I received the email by [email protected] tel me as follows: --------------------------------------------------------- This is the mail system at host blackarrowsoftware.com. I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message. The mail system < [email protected]>: Command died with status 255: "/home/www/blackarrowsoftware.com/support/console/index.php". Command output: PHP Parse error: syntax error, unexpected ';' in /home/www/blackarrowsoftware.com/support/__swift/apps/core/cron/class.Controller_Daily.php on line 85 Parse error: syntax error, unexpected ';' in /home/www/blackarrowsoftware.com/support/__swift/apps/core/cron/class.Controller_Daily.php on line 85 Final-Recipient: rfc822; [email protected]Original-Recipient: rfc822; [email protected]Action: failed Status: 5.3.0 Diagnostic-Code: x-unix; PHP Parse error: syntax error, unexpected ';' in /home/www/blackarrowsoftware.com/support/__swift/apps/core/cron/class.Controller_Daily.php on line 85 Parse error: syntax error, unexpected ';' in /home/www/blackarrowsoftware.com/support/__swift/apps/core/cron/class.Controller_Daily.php on line 85 |
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sirsmokesalot
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May 15, 2014, 02:44:42 AM |
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I ordered 1 X-1 with batch 1 and i am looking at profitability and its never going to happen unless BTC value goes back up. Debating whether to ask for a refund or order another at 50% off. I'm sure its been asked but if we paid with BTC are we getting a refund in BTC or USD?
If you ordered with minersource they will refund you with the exact amount you paid in BTC. Which is how it should be! And i did receive an update today that they are working on my refund at minersource. That it takes some time for them to gather the funds together to get the refunds set up as the money was sent to black arrow for the units to be made. I am fine with that. It was nice to get an update and know progress is being made. It is just that while waiting around for these x-1s i bought the ant miners because they were actually available, and i am glad i did instead of waiting around on these. Now i don't have enough room to run all the x-1's. Just a big headache on how to connect everything to the net and power it all, too much mining crap as it is. Part of me almost, almost feels bad, but ba was the one who felt confident enough to make promises about offering the best dollar per hash going on the date of shipping, so it is hard to not want to feel excited as a customer that they are going to try to live up to that. They have tried with their half assed attempts so far, if you call it trying. I don't know if they really are that desperate and throwing us the only bones they possibly can, or if they are evil masterminds just looking to exploit those eager to make a few quick dollars. In my books lots of shady shit has transpired, looking back the bit fury thing really strikes a nerve, but it is said and done now. When i tried to do a little research i couldn't find anything wrong with black arrow and the lancelots, they seemed to be a pretty decent company back then. And they were responsive and active when i was very interested when they were the best price for hashing equipment. Who knows when things went wrong. They can still right things and manage to turn this whole thing into something very positive. It will cost them dearly, put them in the red, but they need to be thinking long term as well, about the next bactch of equipment, if they don't pull this off, there is no more black arrow. It is in their interest to live up to what they have said in the past. Interestingly enough i went to dig back to find some early mention of the price match since someone was asking, bottom of page nine for this one: The above quotes simplify to this for me: BlackArrow has promised his Prospero ASIC pre-orders (completely paid by Oct sometime) will be 25% cheaper than the market price of currently-shipping non-pre-orders
Correction: 25% cheaper than today's market price. We will do our best to keep the prices 25% less than the competition compared to the orders that are shipped in February 2014 as well, but we cannot guarantee 25% as they have the same manufacturing prices as we do. We can only guarantee that we'll sell cheaper compared to the prices from February 2014. Then i found this little gem:
Current price of CoinTerra
TerraMiner IV - 3$/GH ----- Delivery in "early" Jan (75% of 3$/GH = 2.25$/GH)
Current price of Blackarrow
Prospero X-1: 2.69$/GH ------Delivery in March
Prospero X-3: 2.25$/GH ------Delivery in March
Why do you think that we will fail our delivery date? Any why would any other manufacturer meet their delivery date? So Blackarrow, what happened to the 25% less than competition price guarantee?
We do not guarantee our prices to be 25% lower than our competition. We are currently offering 35% discount compared to OUR retail prices and, by the time of the shipment, if the competition drops the price below ours we will drop the prices as well and deliver more hash power.It is impossible to guarantee what you've understood: The competition has the same manufacturing costs as we are. If they were to drop the prices at manufacturing costs not only that we would work for free, we would also need to give our customers 25% of the manufacturing price. End of Feb 2014 is a long long way with difficulty expected to go up exponentially!
Is your bet that your miner will earn your money back within January? What happens if other manufacturer delivers late? I think that is the kind of trouble having an ego gets you into. Now you either make good on your promises or your credibility takes a real beating. Like i said, almost feel bad. I just wouldn't have made outrageous claims that i know are most likely going to bite me in the ass. Edit: I had to fix a typo that annoyed me. Added a little more venom. |
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