Second chance for mixers?

[fillippone]

I don't know if anyone has already reported this news:

Operators of Cryptocurrency Mixers Charged with Money Laundering

A federal grand jury in the Northern District of Georgia returned an indictment on Jan. 7 charging three Russian nationals for their involvement in operating the cryptocurrency mixing services Blender.io and Sinbad.io.

I really cannot see how theymos can readmit mixers with the long-term benefit of the forum in mind.
 

[examplens]

I don't know if anyone has already reported this news:

Operators of Cryptocurrency Mixers Charged with Money Laundering

A federal grand jury in the Northern District of Georgia returned an indictment on Jan. 7 charging three Russian nationals for their involvement in operating the cryptocurrency mixing services Blender.io and Sinbad.io.

A few posts ago, dkbit98 posted about this.

I really cannot see how theymos can readmit mixers with the long-term benefit of the forum in mind.

Someone thought that, Bitcoin-friendly Trump, would go against all US laws and push the signature campaign on the bitcointalk forum.  Even if he had to release all the prisoners from the previous arrests of the owners of the mixer.

[fillippone]

Someone thought that, Bitcoin-friendly Trump, would go against all US laws and push the signature campaign on the bitcointalk forum.   Even if he had to release all the prisoners from the previous arrests of the owners of the mixer.

Lol, yes.
I don’t see it coming, even if he will pardon Ross Ulbricht on the first day; I feel this is too far, even for my wildest dreams.

I am entirely against the fight on mixers, as I think they are a fundamental privacy tool, and money laundering is not a crime per se.
But I understand this position is incompatible with most government-like institutions.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

Someone thought that, Bitcoin-friendly Trump, would go against all US laws and push the signature campaign on the bitcointalk forum.   Even if he had to release all the prisoners from the previous arrests of the owners of the mixer.

No, some people didn't think of that rubbish.

In the same way that he will ban CBDCs, which are the most anti-privacy financial tool in existence, he can implement privacy-friendly policies on cryptocurrencies, such as setting a high minimum exemption below which transactions do not have to be reported. Such measures could well include not seeing mixers as a tool for money laundering but as a legitimate tool, with the illegitimate use being the use to which they are put.

But I can see that this reasoning was too complicated for you.

[uchegod-21]

Someone thought that, Bitcoin-friendly Trump, would go against all US laws and push the signature campaign on the bitcointalk forum.   Even if he had to release all the prisoners from the previous arrests of the owners of the mixer.

No, some people didn't think of that rubbish.

Seems there's misunderstanding somewhere. I even stumbled on a thread created by one of the latest BTT attention seeker, exaggerating a harmless thread -
Mixer lobby! Why are you still here?

[Don Pedro Dinero]

Seems there's misunderstanding somewhere. I even stumbled on a thread created by one of the latest BTT attention seeker, exaggerating a harmless thread -
Mixer lobby! Why are you still here?

Well, leaving aside what the guy says, who is peculiar to say the least (just look at his trust profile and what he is publishing lately), my point is that the question posed by you is a logical question to open a debate in view of the upcoming change of administration in the USA. In fact, a colleague opened a thread on the subject well before this one in our local section.

Volveran los batidores de frutas al foro?

Whether we don't like/believe Trump or whether we don't think theymos will reverse the change even if more privacy-friendly policies are implemented is another matter, but at least the debate is legitimate and logical in light of the coming changes.

[dansus021]

If Trump's administration becomes so bitcoin friendly, will theymos consider lifting mixers ban in the forum?

The answer would be a big NO, to be honest, i love the mixer campaign here because it makes the sig campaign here in the forum is more colorful hahhah. But mixing is considered an illegal activity for the government no matter what. Because the mixer itself is trying to 'launder' your money in the eye of the government but maybe we do mixing for privacy-focused but hey some people or black hacker is using the service to launder their money.

and after chipmixer and sinbad seized the FBI I believe theymos don't want to take another risk and will ban mixer service for good

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

If Trump's administration becomes so bitcoin friendly, will theymos consider lifting mixers ban in the forum?

The ban on mixers had nothing to do with the biden's administration but how bad they were making the forum to look like because although mixers were created with a good intention but some bad eggs turns it into a tool to steal and fund crime. The forum shouldn't be associated with such news as it doesn't give a good image to the forum and Bitcoin too. Trumps friendliness to the industry doesn't mean he'll be supporting a crime that the last administration weren't in support of, it'll just mean bad for his adminstration too. The forum did well without the mixers, we had few setbacks but things are beginning to return to normal so lets build on that and move forward. Mixers crackdown isn't just going to stop, but might get more heated, you can never know.

[JollyGood]

As a link between Blender and Sinbad had already been established in the Wired article in 2023, it was merely a question of time before it was seized and the people behind it arrested. I created a thread in May 2023 while Sinbad was being promoted in the forum and around 6 months later, Sinbad was seized: After Chipmixer, Is Sinbad.io Next To Be Shutdown?

It should never have been allowed to be promoted inside the forum after it was public information that they were accused of money laundering. No decent campaign manager would have promoted them if they were tainted with serious criminal accusations. I believe that was one instance theymos probably should have intervened and banned them from offering their service via the forum.

As for the present, Sinbad was the last straw and it is clear mixers will not be allowed to return because the risk of people believing this forum and mixers are synonymous is real. To many people, mixers equate to illegal activity and for that reason alone there is no reason to lift the ban if theymos wants to keep a distance between them.

I don't know if anyone has already reported this news:

Operators of Cryptocurrency Mixers Charged with Money Laundering

[Mpamaegbu]

If Trump's administration becomes so bitcoin friendly, will theymos consider lifting mixers ban in the forum?

I doubt if theymos will want to reconsider his ban on mixers here even if the incoming Trump administration goes into full romance with Bitcoin. The reason being that mixers are alleged to be helping hackers, terrorists and all manners of criminals get away by hiding traces of their illicit funds. Except there will be terms and conditions that will compel mixers to kyc whoever wants to make use of their services so that they can be fished out if things go awry or authorities demand such. Otherwise, I don't see how theymos will overlook such and expose this forum to the danger of lurking authorities who can seize this forum effortlessly like it was done to some here two years or so ago.

[Hagart]

~snipped~
Except there will be terms and conditions that will compel mixers to kyc whoever wants to make use of their services so that they can be fished out if things go awry or authorities demand such.

That a mixer requires KYC goes against the very essence of mixers, it is something that already exists, they are called centralized exchanges, where one day they can ask for a DNA sample to be able to withdraw funds.

I still think the mixers shouldn't come back. It's an unnecessary risk.

[Mpamaegbu]

~snipped~

That a mixer requires KYC goes against the very essence of mixers,...

Yeah, I know it's almost an impossibility for mixers to do that but some of them may want to introduce something similar to that to checkmate excesses so they can remain in business. It's just a hypothetical scenario I tried to capture there, anyway.

I still think the mixers shouldn't come back. It's an unnecessary risk.

I believe a lot of users here will share that sentiment of yours too, giving the near panic we witnessed (as evident from the several threads created here to discuss that) when some of them were taken down by authorities two years ago.

[Hagart]

Yeah, I know it's almost an impossibility for mixers to do that but some of them may want to introduce something similar to that to checkmate excesses so they can remain in business. It's just a hypothetical scenario I tried to capture there, anyway.

You have to think that at the same time that mixers require KYC from their users, the identities of the mixer owners would also be exposed to the authorities. And I'm sure no mixer will do something like that. It would make no sense to demand personal data from users and at the same time try to maintain the anonymity of the owners, since the second option would invalidate the first.

I believe a lot of users here will share that sentiment of yours too, giving the near panic we witnessed (as evident from the several threads created here to discuss that) when some of them were taken down by authorities two years ago.

That's right, I think it's the best, but it's just my opinion. What I don't understand is that there are still users wondering if it is possible for the mixers to return, when we all know that in one way or another that could damage the forum.

[CryptSafe]

If Trump's administration becomes so bitcoin friendly, will theymos consider lifting mixers ban in the forum?

I doubt if theymos will want to reconsider his ban on mixers here even if the incoming Trump administration goes into full romance with Bitcoin. The reason being that mixers are alleged to be helping hackers, terrorists and all manners of criminals get away by hiding traces of their illicit funds. Except there will be terms and conditions that will compel mixers to kyc whoever wants to make use of their services so that they can be fished out if things go awry or authorities demand such. Otherwise, I don't see how theymos will overlook such and expose this forum to the danger of lurking authorities who can seize this forum effortlessly like it was done to some here two years or so ago.

I also doubt theymos would allow mixers to return here looking at the past events and the scenarios where mixers were labeled as a medium for embezzlement, terrorism funding, laundering, etc this forum has come a long way that such should dent the name and reputation it has earned for itself all these while. Concerning KYC for mixer users, I think it would be good as anyone who uses the mixer platform to perpetrate any evil would be brought to book very fast for their crimes committed through using the mixer platform.

Although using a mixer is not bad but the intentions of the people using it are what the problem is and that has been the bone of contention between the government and the mixers to make sure those who use the platforms for evil are meant to face the wrath of the law and it would not be alright to also see that this platform would be in the government watch list because of the evil perpetrated by people who use the mixer platform for their wrongdoings.

[theymos]

For the mixer policy to be reversed, the legal environment would have to improve a lot. I think that one of these would have to happen:
 - Some mixers win their court cases.
 - Congress passes laws which explicitly protect mixers.
 - The administration ends up being extremely pro-privacy, better than 99% of politicians in office.

It'll take at least a year before we have a good idea of what the new administration will really be like, but my expectation is that they will only be ~10% better than the Biden administration in this area. I would be surprised if they dropped the case against the Tornado Cash devs, for example.

The Trump administration could be a lot better than I expect, but they could also be a lot worse. I think for example that the Trump administration might be even more aggressive on sanctions (especially against Iran), and they might therefore see financial privacy as a threat to their sanction power. There are also several reasons why the Trump administration may want to restrict cross-border payments generally: to allow for financial repression in response to a debt crisis, to improve the US's hugely-negative net international investment position (which is often a major issue in the minds of Trump-aligned economists), to tariff services in addition to goods, or to control the value of the dollar. Severe restrictions on cross-border payments could also put them in opposition to financial privacy.

The Biden administration clearly wanted to move as close to banning crypto as they could get away with, so it's definitely good that they're gone, but it's not as if Satoshi has just been elected president. The Trump administration has some interest in pleasing their crypto donors, but that can be achieved mainly just by getting prices to go up. They don't much care, and don't have to care, about privacy, disintermediation, decentralization, etc.

[dkbit98]

I don't know if anyone has already reported this news:

Operators of Cryptocurrency Mixers Charged with Money Laundering

I literally posted exact same link on the same day, and you gave me a merit for that, but you seem to forget quickly  

Maybe this latest press release from US Department of Justice is a good answer on your question, arrests and charging of creators and mixer creators/owners are not stopping, and that won't change under the new administration:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/operators-cryptocurrency-mixers-charged-money-laundering

For the mixer policy to be reversed, the legal environment would have to improve a lot. I think that one of these would have to happen:
 - Some mixers win their court cases.

Does this include Samourai wallet case against their developers also?
I think there is a chance for that to happen in 2025.

- Congress passes laws which explicitly protect mixers.

Not gonna happen in our lifetime.

- The administration ends up being extremely pro-privacy, better than 99% of politicians in office.

Is there any chance that forum administration moves to El Salvador or other pro-privacy locations?

The Trump administration has some interest in pleasing their crypto donors, but that can be achieved mainly just by getting prices to go up. They don't much care, and don't have to care, about privacy, disintermediation, decentralization, etc.

I don't trust Trump or any of his donors, they are turning everything into circus show, and Biden received donations from known scammers like Sam Bankman-Fried.

[JollyGood]

Well, that settles it. The OP got his answer 

For the mixer policy to be reversed, the legal environment would have to improve a lot. I think that one of these would have to happen:
 - Some mixers win their court cases.
 - Congress passes laws which explicitly protect mixers.
 - The administration ends up being extremely pro-privacy, better than 99% of politicians in office.

[Mpamaegbu]

Well, that settles it. The OP got his answer 

Case, dismissed!

OP, you may want to lock this thread.

[uchegod-21]

Well, that settles it. The OP got his answer 

For the mixer policy to be reversed, the legal environment would have to improve a lot. I think that one of these would have to happen:
 - Some mixers win their court cases.
 - Congress passes laws which explicitly protect mixers.
 - The administration ends up being extremely pro-privacy, better than 99% of politicians in office.

As the condition progresses, the harder and more difficult it becomes to be implemented. It therefore means that we should forget about mixers in the forum because the conditions will never happen 

[examplens]

As the condition progresses, the harder and more difficult it becomes to be implemented. It therefore means that we should forget about mixers in the forum because the conditions will never happen  

We should not forget about the mixers. The discussion is free and, in some situations, desirable. The only thing that is not acceptable on the Bitcointalk forum is mixer promotion and any recommendation of mixers. Most famous mixers' names are wordscraped, so it's impossible to mention them.