Second chance for mixers?

[NotATether]

If this forum does allow mixers again then a problem needs to be addressed:

How do we stop mixers coming to the forum, running large budget signature campaigns and running off with the loot when the reserve becomes large enough?

I don't think the forum should allow mixers until there is some form of policy on how these mixers work. We need decentralized solutions, not centralized ones, if the forum wants to succeed with mixers and if users are to be safe. Bitcoin has evolved a lot since the ban, creating decentralized mixers can work, so I would hope that the community rally together to build a decentralized framework in comparison to relying on anonymous individuals who abuse the forum and its people.

Why would the forum waste its resources fighting privacy services? Don't you think that's a bit of an oxymoron?

Theymos gave the ban button to the mixers, they're not coming back here for our own good.

[EarnOnVictor]

Do you or anyone else also think that the frequent attack on the forum then that made the forum to go offline often was because of the presence of the mixers. Who knows if FBI or any other related bodies were monitoring or bombing the forum. After mixers ban, I don't think the forum has gone offline for a minute.

In my observation, the attack was still there after the ban of mixers but only reduced and we've not seen such an offline period where no one couldn't access the forum for hours due to attacks. But who knows what we can experience tomorrow? The system security is also being upgraded daily. We will be fine.

Regardless of whether the mixer is contributory or not, the decision to let it go is a positive one for the forum. We now have the rest of minds from the authorities.

[BenCodie]

I don't think the forum should allow mixers until there is some form of policy on how these mixers work. We need decentralized solutions, not centralized ones, if the forum wants to succeed with mixers and if users are to be safe. Bitcoin has evolved a lot since the ban, creating decentralized mixers can work, so I would hope that the community rally together to build a decentralized framework in comparison to relying on anonymous individuals who abuse the forum and its people.

If we're waiting for the policy, it will high likely illegal because most people see mixer is bad instead of good. The government might make it legal, but the mixer will act like a honeypot because they're working with the government.

The decentralized solutions to increase privacy in Bitcoin is called CoinJoin and the forum still allow that, although it's not really effective to hide your trace compared to mixer.

I agree that it is both far-fetched and unlikely that the forum or governments/policy makers will change their stance on mixers. I'm just adding my input on if they were to be re-added.

I don't think the forum should allow mixers until there is some form of policy on how these mixers work. We need decentralized solutions, not centralized ones, if the forum wants to succeed with mixers and if users are to be safe. Bitcoin has evolved a lot since the ban, creating decentralized mixers can work, so I would hope that the community rally together to build a decentralized framework in comparison to relying on anonymous individuals who abuse the forum and its people.

The decentralized solutions to increase privacy in Bitcoin is called CoinJoin and the forum still allow that, although it's not really effective to hide your trace compared to mixer.

Yes, hence if mixers are re-allowed due to their good intention to preserve privacy, and a requirement for them to be decentralized and non-custodial is something that comes with the re-allowance, then this will cause innovation that might produce better solutions than CoinJoin.

If this forum does allow mixers again then a problem needs to be addressed:

How do we stop mixers coming to the forum, running large budget signature campaigns and running off with the loot when the reserve becomes large enough?

I don't think the forum should allow mixers until there is some form of policy on how these mixers work. We need decentralized solutions, not centralized ones, if the forum wants to succeed with mixers and if users are to be safe. Bitcoin has evolved a lot since the ban, creating decentralized mixers can work, so I would hope that the community rally together to build a decentralized framework in comparison to relying on anonymous individuals who abuse the forum and its people.

Why would the forum waste its resources fighting privacy services? Don't you think that's a bit of an oxymoron?

Theymos gave the ban button to the mixers, they're not coming back here for our own good.

Not at all. It's not wasting time and resources to require that a mixer is non-custodial and decentralized. My comment was in the event that mixers were allowed again, I'm not for or against them...I am, however, for decentralized and non-custodial technologies, and against scams, so if they are allowed again, then all I am saying is that this should be a requirement.

[JayJuanGee]

I don't think the forum should allow mixers until there is some form of policy on how these mixers work. We need decentralized solutions, not centralized ones, if the forum wants to succeed with mixers and if users are to be safe. Bitcoin has evolved a lot since the ban, creating decentralized mixers can work, so I would hope that the community rally together to build a decentralized framework in comparison to relying on anonymous individuals who abuse the forum and its people.

If we're waiting for the policy, it will high likely illegal because most people see mixer is bad instead of good. The government might make it legal, but the mixer will act like a honeypot because they're working with the government.

It's not accurate to describe mixers as illegal or to presume that they engage in fraud. 

Surely there was a problem for the forum when several mixers ended up getting accused of being illegal and/or committing fraud, so in that sense, there could have had been possibilities that the forum could have had been charged with being complicit and/or facilitating fraud and/or illegal activities... and so it seems that several mixers are on the hot seat, then more and more unwanted attention could end up being directed towards the forum, whether information requests (subpoenas) from the government, other kind of governmental inquiries and/or legal actions against the forum.

As theymos had already mentioned, I would imagine that if it is seeming that there are way lessenings in the hostilities towards mixers, then there could be some ways that some aspect of mixer advertising could come back to the forum, and yeah of course, theymos listed some specific ways that he would consider the hostilities to be going down, and a lot of that did not seem too likely.. and so my point is that merely because hostilities have been high and that there have been criminal accusations towards several mixers, that does not make mixers illegal or even able to be challenged as being governmental overreach - even though surely the forum does not want to get unnecessarily sucked into such a legal battle.....and not that I even proclaim to know much if any details beyond just my wanting to opine on the idea that mixers are illegal or fraudulent in themselves, which I would suggest is not necessarily true.   

There are also plenty of forum members who would proclaim that we have rights to privacy and security, and surely mixers could be one of the ways to facilitate privacy and/or security, even though there surely might be some devil in the details regarding how a mixer might be defined or how it might be operated and even the extent to which some government agencies might have had been unnecessarily impinging  on rights that we have to both privacy and security.  The devil is in some of the details, too, of course.

The decentralized solutions to increase privacy in Bitcoin is called CoinJoin and the forum still allow that, although it's not really effective to hide your trace compared to mixer.

Fair point.

[Medusah]

I'm leaving this here.

https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

-snip-

Executive Order 14178 tasks the Justice Department and others with "protecting and promoting" (1) "the ability of individual citizens and private-sector entities alike to access and use for lawful purposes open public blockchain networks without persecution"; and (2) "fair and open access to banking services for all law-abiding individual citizens and private-sector entities alike." In response to those taskings, the Justice Department will stop participating in regulation by prosecution in this space. Specifically, the Department will no longer target virtual currency exchanges, mixing and tumbling services, and offline wallets for the acts of their end users or unwitting violations of regulations-except to the extent the investigation is consistent with the priorities articulated in the following paragraphs.

[examplens]

I'm leaving this here.

https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

-snip-

Executive Order 14178 tasks the Justice Department and others with "protecting and promoting" (1) "the ability of individual citizens and private-sector entities alike to access and use for lawful purposes open public blockchain networks without persecution"; and (2) "fair and open access to banking services for all law-abiding individual citizens and private-sector entities alike." In response to those taskings, the Justice Department will stop participating in regulation by prosecution in this space. Specifically, the Department will no longer target virtual currency exchanges, mixing and tumbling services, and offline wallets for the acts of their end users or unwitting violations of regulations-except to the extent the investigation is consistent with the priorities articulated in the following paragraphs.

Regardless of how this will affect theymos' decision on the mixer position on this forum, this is a good thing for crypto. Finally some common sense. I hope we will not go back to this conclusion again.

[Lucius]

I've read it several times and I wonder if there's a catch to this - because considering how much they fought against mixers, it's really strange that they're making this turn now. What's next? The president's official mixing service, which could be called TruMix

[JollyGood]

This announcement has come as a complete surprise but in the opening paragraph it clearly states their disapproval of the manner the Biden administration (referred to as the prior administration) operated towards crypto:

However, the prior Administration used the Justice Department to pursue a reckless strategy of regulation by prosecution, which was ill conceived and poorly executed. The Justice Department will no longer pursue litigation or enforcement actions that have the effect of superimposing regulatory frameworks on digital assets while President Trump's actual regulators do this work outside the punitive criminal justice framework.

The announcement might give theymos an opportunity to reconsider his ban.

I'm leaving this here.

https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

[nutildah]

This announcement has come as a complete surprise but in the opening paragraph it clearly states their disapproval of the manner the Biden administration (referred to as the prior administration) operated towards crypto:

However, the prior Administration used the Justice Department to pursue a reckless strategy of regulation by prosecution, which was ill conceived and poorly executed. The Justice Department will no longer pursue litigation or enforcement actions that have the effect of superimposing regulatory frameworks on digital assets while President Trump's actual regulators do this work outside the punitive criminal justice framework.

The announcement might give theymos an opportunity to reconsider his ban.

I'm leaving this here.

https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

I also thought this part was interesting:

"As part of the Justice Department's ongoing work against fentanyl trafficking, terrorism, cartels, and human trafficking and smuggling, the Department will pursue the illicit financing of these enterprises by the individuals and enterprises themselves, including when it involves digital assets, but will not pursue actions against the platforms that these enterprises utilize to conduct their illegal activities.

Ongoing investigations that are inconsistent with the foregoing should be closed."

I wonder if this means the US is dropping its charges against ChipMixer. And I'm guessing it doesn't mean they would stop going after darknet markets as that's probably a whole different ballgame of criminality according to them.

Now its up to the EU to drop their similar charges against the ChipMixer operator; we'll see if they follow suit in terms of regulations.

[Apocollapse]

It's rare to see The US do the opposite what The EU did, EU are tightening their regulation since they want to KYC every self custodial wallet that send more than $1K, although they didn't explicitly said if they ban mixer.

I think that's enough as a reason for second chance, @theymos shouldn't afraid if he would go to jail because US not attacking mixer anymore, at least for now.

[JollyGood]

You raise a valid question. I had not thought about ChipMixer within the context of the announcement by the US Justice Department. The Justice Dpartment document about ChipMixer lists all of the alleged crimes. Keeping in mind the latest news from the US, it seems current status of the allegations against the owner/operator of ChipMixer should be clarified.

The EU have many member states therefore getting them all to agree on a single item is going to take time. Consensus within the EU can take time.

I wonder if this means the US is dropping its charges against ChipMixer. And I'm guessing it doesn't mean they would stop going after darknet markets as that's probably a whole different ballgame of criminality according to them.

Now its up to the EU to drop their similar charges against the ChipMixer operator; we'll see if they follow suit in terms of regulations.

[Lucius]

~snip~
The EU have many member states therefore getting them all to agree on a single item is going to take time. Consensus within the easy can time.

It doesn't have to be that way, because about 70% of all decisions are made in the EU parliament, and then confirmed in national parliaments - and each country has a representative in the same parliament in relation to the number of inhabitants. This means that decisions are made by the largest countries such as Germany, France, Spain and Italy, the smaller countries mostly just adopt laws.

However, considering the existing and new regulations in the EU when it comes to cryptocurrencies, I am not at all optimistic that they will take the same position as the US in this matter.

[LoyceV]

https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

the Department will no longer target virtual currency exchanges, mixing and tumbling services, and offline wallets for the acts of their end users

Here, even banks are held accountable for things their customers do. I'm quite surprised to see the opposite in the US even for mixing services!

[Catenaccio]

https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

the Department will no longer target virtual currency exchanges, mixing and tumbling services, and offline wallets for the acts of their end users

Here, even banks are held accountable for things their customers do. I'm quite surprised to see the opposite in the US even for mixing services!

Next four years, policy and regulation can be changed again and very oppositely than now. When it only came out of the air recently, I believe that theymos will not want to take risk by being too hurry of bringing mixer advertisement back to the forum.

If this goes well, it will still take thermos some months for watching this new regulation enforcement because both taking down advertisement of mixers or bringing it back to the forum are big decisions.

[JollyGood]

It doesn't have to be that way, because about 70% of all decisions are made in the EU parliament, and then confirmed in national parliaments - and each country has a representative in the same parliament in relation to the number of inhabitants. This means that decisions are made by the largest countries such as Germany, France, Spain and Italy, the smaller countries mostly just adopt laws.

I am not sure about how implementation of EU law works. I can recall one EU member state that was blocking aid for a non-EU state when all other nations voted in favour. Only when they received some benefit for their own state did they allow the bill to pass.

However, considering the existing and new regulations in the EU when it comes to cryptocurrencies, I am not at all optimistic that they will take the same position as the US in this matter.

If the laws are not ratified across the EU it means there is no universal consensus between EU nations. In that case it could be down to individual states to implement their own policy towards mixers.

[nakamura12]

Even if the current administration in the government isn't against crypto but if they still think that it can be used again for criminal activities then there's a very low chance of mixers having a second chance due to it being a mixer where people can use it to cover their tracks of money being transferred so if that's the case then mixers are most likely still banned here in the forum however if that's no longer the case then there's a possibility of mixers having a second chance if they are not attacking mixers.

[chigo]

I'm leaving this here.

https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

-snip-

Executive Order 14178 tasks the Justice Department and others with "protecting and promoting" (1) "the ability of individual citizens and private-sector entities alike to access and use for lawful purposes open public blockchain networks without persecution"; and (2) "fair and open access to banking services for all law-abiding individual citizens and private-sector entities alike." In response to those taskings, the Justice Department will stop participating in regulation by prosecution in this space. Specifically, the Department will no longer target virtual currency exchanges, mixing and tumbling services, and offline wallets for the acts of their end users or unwitting violations of regulations-except to the extent the investigation is consistent with the priorities articulated in the following paragraphs.

fresh air for cryptocurrency, with this regulation it will be easier for crypto businessmen to run their business as long as they do not commit any deliberate crimes, surely theymos will immediately take the best decision for the forum and mixer.

[Z_MBFM]

Even if the current administration in the government isn't against crypto but if they still think that it can be used again for criminal activities then there's a very low chance of mixers having a second chance due to it being a mixer where people can use it to cover their tracks of money being transferred so if that's the case then mixers are most likely still banned here in the forum however if that's no longer the case then there's a possibility of mixers having a second chance if they are not attacking mixers.

Mixers are a great platform for hiding users. Everyone who uses crypto wants to remain anonymous, but due to the need to use centralized platforms, no one can remain completely anonymous. However, mixers are mostly used for illegal activities. For example, when a hacker hacks a platform and steals a large amount of bitcoins, they mix those bitcoins through the mixer and erase their tracks, making it difficult to track. And this is why mixers have been banned from this forum. I don't think mixers can be given a second chance here.

[dkbit98]

I'm leaving this here.

https://www.justice.gov/dag/media/1395781/dl?inline

This is great to see they actually added mixing/tumbling services in this official document, but I am sure they won't stop monitoring all services.
Maybe theymos could could consider making rule change again, but we are not getting similar messages from EU side.
I think adding more freedom in forum signature campaigns and conversation would be beneficial.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

This is great to see they actually added mixing/tumbling services in this official document, but I am sure they won't stop monitoring all services.

'Monitoring' is a good choice of words.

My guess is that they may be used as Honeypots that the feds hope know illegal activity will flock to. The feds will simply track all inputs & outputs then use pattern recognition aka 'AI' to establish chain of custody to prosecute with.