Why is value betting against casino TOS?

[Russlenat]

Saw a newbie account in this forum complaining ( still spamming in an ANN thread) that his winnings were voided and his account got closed. The casino point it was because of value betting. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen that reason, so it made me wonder why casinos treat it as a violation.

I already have an idea what value betting is, but I want to hear from others who might have dealt with this. How does a casino decide someone is value betting, and what usually triggers it?

Maybe we’re doing something that counts as value betting without knowing, so it’s better to talk about it here and share experiences.

[Odusko]

Basically sport bettors shouldn't take up bets that have odds that is insanely higher than it expected, let say that a game that ought to carry originally 2.0 odds listing odds that is close to 3.50, this is definitely an extra value for that bet and if the bettor keep picking such games with value bets, indirectly the book makers sees that as cheating.
In one world, value bets odds are statistical errors in odds from the book makers end and if sport bettors keep betting on them, the outcome winning could be seen and violations of the bookmakers system.
This is just the way I think of value bet and how bookmakers treats it winnings.

[Distinctin]

Basically sport bettors shouldn't take up bets that have odds that is insanely higher than it expected, let say that a game that ought to carry originally 2.0 odds listing odds that is close to 3.50, this is definitely an extra value for that bet and if the bettor keep picking such games with value bets, indirectly the book makers sees that as cheating.
In one world, value bets odds are statistical errors in odds from the book makers end and if sport bettors keep betting on them, the outcome winning could be seen and violations of the bookmakers system.
This is just the way I think of value bet and how bookmakers treats it winnings.

If that’s your definition of it, then would the blame really fall on the gambler? What if the gambler is only using one sportsbook and isn’t aware of what the correct odds should be, and he just sees an attractive line so he takes it. Would that be his fault if he ends up winning? And what if the bet loses, since you’re saying it could be an error, will the bookie refund the bet then?

[mikel_012]

Basically sport bettors shouldn't take up bets that have odds that is insanely higher than it expected, let say that a game that ought to carry originally 2.0 odds listing odds that is close to 3.50, this is definitely an extra value for that bet and if the bettor keep picking such games with value bets, indirectly the book makers sees that as cheating.
In one world, value bets odds are statistical errors in odds from the book makers end and if sport bettors keep betting on them, the outcome winning could be seen and violations of the bookmakers system.
This is just the way I think of value bet and how bookmakers treats it winnings.

It makes sense.

And if the odd is just very obviously wrong, then the casino will take the earnings out of the account and limit you if you are just betting on games like this that are obviously a mistake on the booker.

If that’s your definition of it, then would the blame really fall on the gambler? What if the gambler is only using one sportsbook and isn’t aware of what the correct odds should be, and he just sees an attractive line so he takes it. Would that be his fault if he ends up winning? And what if the bet loses, since you’re saying it could be an error, will the bookie refund the bet then?

But what if the account is just doing bets like this every time and does not bet on normal games? Then it's obvious he is chasing value bets and mistakes from the booker.

[Oshosondy]

I already have an idea what value betting is, but I want to hear from others who might have dealt with this. How does a casino decide someone is value betting, and what usually triggers it?

I do not know about it but according to what I heard about value bets, is a means a bettor can try to win in long term from betting sites, but I do not know if this is truly possible.

Maybe we’re doing something that counts as value betting without knowing, so it’s better to talk about it here and share experiences.

I have a very little knowledge about this but I have not be accused by a gambling site about it before, but that could be because I am losing than winning in betting.

A reputable gambling site should not use value bet as an excuse of accusing their customers of cheating, value bet is not cheating in anyway.

[rdluffy]

Guys, do you find these value bets?
If so, do you remember what the last one was?

I can't find these value bets, but can the casino ban a user if they find too many of them or just one or two?
It's a little difficult to judge cases like this because the bookmaker set the odds, and all they would have to do is adjust or cancel them in this case, right?

[mikel_012]

I do not know about it but according to what I heard about value bets, is a means a bettor can try to win in long term from betting sites, but I do not know if this is truly possible.

They can win in the long term because the odds are bad for the sportsbook. If its an easy game with good odds the chances of winning and making the sportsbook lose money is higher than normal

Like when a online store misses the price and puts something costing $100 for $10, they will lose money if people buy and the customers can get banned if they try to abuse this glitch

[Dogedegen]

Basically sport bettors shouldn't take up bets that have odds that is insanely higher than it expected, let say that a game that ought to carry originally 2.0 odds listing odds that is close to 3.50, this is definitely an extra value for that bet and if the bettor keep picking such games with value bets, indirectly the book makers sees that as cheating.
In one world, value bets odds are statistical errors in odds from the book makers end and if sport bettors keep betting on them, the outcome winning could be seen and violations of the bookmakers system.
This is just the way I think of value bet and how bookmakers treats it winnings.

This seems wrong to me because from what I can tell about most TOS is the casino will always try to shift the blame on the user. If an user makes an error it is his fault, if the casino makes an error they still try to blame the player. I think value bets are fair game and as far as I am know traditional bookmakers you know those that you played in person never had rules against this. There is no cheating involved. You may just be keeping good track of the situation and sometimes get lucky. You know also why, tell me this.

If a game ought to carry 2.0 odds but the odds close at 3.5, and I win this is a value bet?
If a game ought to carry 2.0 odds but the odds are close at 3.5, and I lose then this is not a value bet?

I am saying to compare the same game with 2 outcomes. If this is true, then the definition of a value bet is a trick and it makes no sense. They are just looking for additional excuses to cheat players that are doing a good analysis of the odds and trying to find good picks.

They can win in the long term because the odds are bad for the sportsbook. If its an easy game with good odds the chances of winning and making the sportsbook lose money is higher than normal

Sportsbook that has bad odds should go out of business and not cheat players off of winnings. This should not be allowed.

[Sanitough]

Guys, do you find these value bets?
If so, do you remember what the last one was?

I can't find these value bets, but can the casino ban a user if they find too many of them or just one or two?
It's a little difficult to judge cases like this because the bookmaker set the odds, and all they would have to do is adjust or cancel them in this case, right?

It’s not actually illegal to do value betting, but it is against the casino’s TOS. The tricky part here, for those who still don’t fully get what value betting is, you’re basically looking for odds or lines that are mispriced so you can take advantage of them. And when you win more than usual because of that, the casino sees it as abuse, which is why they use the TOS to justify freezing accounts and banning users.

There’s really no fairness in that setup since they’re only protecting their business interests. If they truly believed it was a mispriced line, then losing bets should be refunded too. But that never happens. I haven’t seen anyone here say they were refunded for a losing value bet. What we mostly see are complaints about accounts getting locked because of that value betting issue.

[mikel_012]

They can win in the long term because the odds are bad for the sportsbook. If its an easy game with good odds the chances of winning and making the sportsbook lose money is higher than normal

Sportsbook that has bad odds should go out of business and not cheat players off of winnings. This should not be allowed.

But what if the bad odd is a glitch on the provider and the user history tells the story that he only participates of bets that are glitched? The same way imagine if you own a store and put the wrong price that is 90% cheaper and the customer wants the item delivered would you do that and lose a lot of money? Without more informations I can't say if the sportsbook is wrong

[adultcrypto]

Basically sport bettors shouldn't take up bets that have odds that is insanely higher than it expected, let say that a game that ought to carry originally 2.0 odds listing odds that is close to 3.50, this is definitely an extra value for that bet and if the bettor keep picking such games with value bets, indirectly the book makers sees that as cheating.
In one world, value bets odds are statistical errors in odds from the book makers end and if sport bettors keep betting on them, the outcome winning could be seen and violations of the bookmakers system.
This is just the way I think of value bet and how bookmakers treats it winnings.

If your definition is right, then why blame the bettor for the mistake of the bookmakers? My business is to find games that are of high probability and betting them accordingly irrespective of the odd they receive from the bookmakers and their job is to fix the odd, value betting as they say should never be a problem or a burden on the bettor since they have no business in fixing the odd. I understand that some people make their selection base on the odd but that does not make them have more winnings than those that use strength and other data to make their selection. My point is that the idea of value betting is not supposed to be a thing for a casino that care much about their reputation.

[mirakal]

I’ve seen some older topics about value betting before, one of them was even a scam accusation thread. If you check those, you’ll get a clearer idea of what value betting actually is and why bookies really hate it.

https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=5563546.0
https://asktom.cf/index.php?topic=5549450.0

[Darker45]

In the case mentioned in the OP, there's normally a specific provision in the ToS that gives the bookmaker the sole discretion of kicking a user out. In which case, the bookmaker has the right to ban an account whatever the reason is.

I think it was also in this section where I've read about value betting. And it was more of encouraging bettors to look for it rather than avoid it. Some odds may appear wrong after all factors are considered. That's what a bettor should look for and take advantage. It must not be easy.

And if a bettor gets it right, I believe he/she won't be banned right away. The reason somebody is banned is the pattern. If a bettor is consistently making money out of value bets, usually +EV, there's no reason why the bookmaker would want to retain him/her. He/she's a liability. The business is losing rather than making money.

[Dogedegen]

They can win in the long term because the odds are bad for the sportsbook. If its an easy game with good odds the chances of winning and making the sportsbook lose money is higher than normal

Sportsbook that has bad odds should go out of business and not cheat players off of winnings. This should not be allowed.

But what if the bad odd is a glitch on the provider and the user history tells the story that he only participates of bets that are glitched? The same way imagine if you own a store and put the wrong price that is 90% cheaper and the customer wants the item delivered would you do that and lose a lot of money? Without more informations I can't say if the sportsbook is wrong

Yeah but that can not be really compared here. In the case of a store if there is a big mistake it can only cause a loss for the store. There is no situation in which the store can abuse this claim to prevent a customer from winning money. So the situations are similar in some ways but in others very different. As I tried to show in my post, what exactly is a value bet? What happens if I lose the bet anyway even if the odds were glitched and higher? Does the casino refund me my money? If they don't refund me my money in this case, then this is not correct practice.

If they want to be honest there are only two cases. In the first, if I win the value bet they take back their money and prevent my win. In the second, they must refund me my money if I lose a value bet. That is the only fair way to approach the topic of value bets if they want to be against them. Every other way is just abusive towards the user and provides an opportunity for the casino to cheat them away from the winnings.

[Charles-Tim]

And if a bettor gets it right, I believe he/she won't be banned right away. The reason somebody is banned is the pattern. If a bettor is consistently making money out of value bets, usually +EV, there's no reason why the bookmaker would want to retain him/her. He/she's a liability. The business is losing rather than making money.

If the person know his or her right, he should sue the gambling site, especially if the gambling site did not allow him or her to withdraw his winning. I know some gambling site can be that dubious. Value bet is not something wrong at all, it is the gambling site that should amend loopholes instead. Also gambling sites should try as much as possible to avoid loopholes.

[yahoo62278]

My opinion is I am a gambler. I am looking to make a bet on a game and I am just making a bet that they offer. It's not my job to make sure the odds are correct, I don't really care. I am just looking to make a sportsbet.

If they offer the bet I believe the fault is on them. Their team should be consistently checking the odds and making sure they are right. IMO if they aren't it would be so that they have a reason to not pay out.

Someone is free to criticize my opinion and explain to me why I am wrong, but for now I see it no other way.

[Russlenat]

I already have an idea what value betting is, but I want to hear from others who might have dealt with this. How does a casino decide someone is value betting, and what usually triggers it?

I do not know about it but according to what I heard about value bets, is a means a bettor can try to win in long term from betting sites, but I do not know if this is truly possible.

A bettor can definitely aim for long-term wins, but that’s not the same thing as the “value betting” we’re talking about here.

The value betting that would not make you ban is still about finding mispriced odds using implied probability versus true probability, then calculating if there’s an edge. That part isn’t against the TOS, so no issue there. But even with that approach, it’s still hard to win long-term, although yeah, it’s possible.

Maybe we’re doing something that counts as value betting without knowing, so it’s better to talk about it here and share experiences.

I have a very little knowledge about this but I have not be accused by a gambling site about it before, but that could be because I am losing than winning in betting.

A reputable gambling site should not use value bet as an excuse of accusing their customers of cheating, value bet is not cheating in anyway.

But I’ve actually seen a reputable site doing that, which is why I decided to bring it up here.

Just so others won’t get misled, this applies only to sports betting.

[Oshosondy]

But I’ve actually seen a reputable site doing that, which is why I decided to bring it up here.

Just so others won’t get misled, this applies only to sports betting.

Which scam betting site is that?

I have read many gambling site terms of service, I have not seen anything that is against value bet before on their terms and conditions.

Only what I noticed gambling sites are against which is similar to this but not this is arbitrage betting in a way that the gambler is having multiple accounts for. Gambling sites are against having more than one accounts.

[Russlenat]

But I’ve actually seen a reputable site doing that, which is why I decided to bring it up here.

Just so others won’t get misled, this applies only to sports betting.

Which scam betting site is that?

I wouldn’t call them a scam gambling site right away. That’s exactly why I brought the topic here, so we can see who should really be blamed, the gambler or the casino. And based on what I’ve read, the reactions are mixed. Some users side with the casino, others side with the gamblers.

I just wanted to know what the community thinks, and maybe we can use this as a starting point to push back against unfair TOS practices from certain casinos.

I have read many gambling site terms of service, I have not seen anything that is against value bet before on their terms and conditions.

Maybe it’s not explicitly stated in their rules, but they probably treat it as abusing wrong lines, which honestly I don’t fully understand either.

And I agree with @yahoo62278. It’s not our obligation to check if the line they offer is correct or wrong.
As gamblers, we just look at the odds that attract us and place the bet. That’s it.

[Dunamisx]

The odds are not set by the gamblers, the bookmakers do that, a gambler may choose his picks and coincidentally make selections of games which may fall under their own definition of what a value bet is, but his own intentions weren't for that purpose, so the bookmakers should cancel a bet in this format or prevent the gambler from making such combinations, because if they allow the bet in the first place, then the gambler win and they provide allegation of value bet, it's really insane to take that from them.