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[cryptofrka]

If you are gauging the community's opinion, why don't you just make a poll? Ask all the users that are interested in this case and are familiar with it (if they want to participate) and you'll have a clearer picture.

If you decide to go that way, options should be something in the line of:
1. Player's bet should be paid out in full
2. Player's stake should be returned
3. 25% of the initial deposit is a really fair offer
4. FJ does not owe anything to the player

This should not be binding, of course. But it can help both sides to see towards what community gravitates and maybe it will help both sides to deal with the situation a bit differently.

It should be transparent, of course. Maybe members sending PM's with their votes to both EpicChamp and FortuneJack.

This has been dragging on for a while already, I agree it's time to close it somehow.

[FortuneJack]

If you are gauging the community's opinion, why don't you just make a poll? Ask all the users that are interested in this case and are familiar with it (if they want to participate) and you'll have a clearer picture.

If you decide to go that way, options should be something in the line of:
1. Player's bet should be paid out in full
2. Player's stake should be returned
3. 25% of the initial deposit is a really fair offer
4. FJ does not owe anything to the player

This should not be binding, of course. But it can help both sides to see towards what community gravitates and maybe it will help both sides to deal with the situation a bit differently.

It should be transparent, of course. Maybe members sending PM's with their votes to both EpicChamp and FortuneJack.

This has been dragging on for a while already, I agree it's time to close it somehow.

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Just have published the poll for the community.

It will be active till the weekend - as it's quite crucial for us to have it closed as soon as possible.

Kindly asking everyone to participate - once the voting is finished, we will be immediately taking the action.


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Team FJ

[DarkStar_]

Another thing I'd like to share once again for more "social" proof is the opinion of the majority of members on this forum and what they think about this situation. Here is what everyone had to say:

Quoting people out of context should not be used to strengthen your point.

If you are gauging the community's opinion, why don't you just make a poll? Ask all the users that are interested in this case and are familiar with it (if they want to participate) and you'll have a clearer picture.

If you decide to go that way, options should be something in the line of:
1. Player's bet should be paid out in full
2. Player's stake should be returned
3. 25% of the initial deposit is a really fair offer
4. FJ does not owe anything to the player

This should not be binding, of course. But it can help both sides to see towards what community gravitates and maybe it will help both sides to deal with the situation a bit differently.

It should be transparent, of course. Maybe members sending PM's with their votes to both EpicChamp and FortuneJack.

This has been dragging on for a while already, I agree it's time to close it somehow.

Just have published the poll for the community.

It will be active till the weekend - as it's quite crucial for us to have it closed as soon as possible.

Kindly asking everyone to participate - once the voting is finished, we will be immediately taking the action.

I don't think this is good precedent to set - you shouldn't have to payout odds errors (again assuming it was a valid error) just because the community (which is likely going to be player biased since people generally don't know all that much) thinks you should. It might be worth asking EpicChamp if they're interested in independent mediation, perhaps with a site like SBR that knows what they're doing. My *guess* is that they'd end up siding with FJ.

[EpicChamp]

Once again, I appreciate the 25% offer - but if FortuneJack keeps blaming Betrader for what happened, then Betrader should be the ones paying for this mistake instead.

The bottom line is that MANY mistakes were made on their end, and one of them needs to own up to their mistakes rather than get away with it without facing any consequences for their wrongdoings as if it's no big deal or nothing happened. The "mistake" was also universal and it wasn't just FJ who had these odds on their site, yet all other major bookies paid out the winnings to users in full (assuming they bet on De Jong) and didn't cancel this bet to anyone.

If FortuneJack doesn't want to do it because they feel like it wasn't their fault, then Betrader should pay for my winning bet instead. Why can't they pay out of their own pocket if they are clearly in the wrong?

I really don't care who does it, but one of them should take responsibility for what happened and award my winning bet because this bet should never have been canceled in the first place, especially considering how late of a cancelation it was. (It took FJ 7 hours after my partial cashout to notify me that they decided the cancel my bet, when they could + should have easily done it right away if it was such a clear & obvious mistake)

Bookies cannot do whatever they want and must be held accountable to high standards in the industry & conduct fair play at all times for their users.

Why is that so hard to understand and accept?

It's also not like this was an extreme situation either where my player was mistakingly posted at 5.0+ odds by complete accident for a very brief period of time (a few mins), where I managed to quickly catch it and deliberately made a big bet knowing 100% it was the wrong odds - this doesn't take a genius to figure out and it was nothing like that in my situation.

I would personally never take advantage of such an obvious mistake, and I believe the match I bet on was very even without any clear favorites going into it. Therefore, the odds ranging between 1.3-3.0 is very reasonable and nothing abnormal, especially at the challenger level where upsets happen all the time.

So I would greatly appreciate it if one of you does the right thing and honors my bet in full, because that is how it truly should be and I 100% deserve to win it.

[Findingnemo]

^ If you still think you treated unfair then you can just go for a complaint site like mentioned above yours and odd errors are not responsible to be paid by the sportbook is what I understand but keep saying the same thing is not going to change anything.

[deadley]

If odds really flipped by technical glitch, normally books, void the bet before start of the game or mail the user to give option of accepting new odds or void the bet. But here is situation is really different because of 50% cashout.

@FortuneJack was odds really wrong or it reduced continuously because of betting volume? If it was really wrong than you can void the bet technically even after user cashout the bet and revert the excess fund. But if  it was reduced so much because of betting volume than, EpicChamp deserve the that half bet stake back. Normally books offer goodwill gesture bonus in % of bet that was disputed, I saw you offered him 25% bonus, I think it's good if odds was really wrong. But if odds reduces because of betting volume than EpicChamp is right that his half bet must be refund.

Just 2 cent from my side.

[EpicChamp]

^ If you still think you treated unfair then you can just go for a complaint site like mentioned above yours and odd errors are not responsible to be paid by the sportbook is what I understand but keep saying the same thing is not going to change anything.

I am not saying the same thing, I'm saying something different if you read it carefully.

My main point is that if FJ doesn't think it's fair to them or that they're in the wrong, and are blaming Betrader for everything that happened, then Betrader should be the one to pay for my bet in full instead of FJ by this logic.

Has FJ contacted them to talk about it and explain what happened + why they need to pay for their mistake and honor my bet? I highly doubt it, which is why I brought it up.

But in no way is this right for either FortuneJack OR Betrader to get away with this situation without owning up to a big mistake that was made on their end which has been shoved down to me, when I had absolutely nothing to do with it.

How is it fair to ME to have to pay for THEIR mistake?

Right now I feel completely cheated, and I'm extremely disappointed at how FJ is behaving & dealing with this situation considering a mistake was made on their end that cost me thousands of dollars in winnings. And it's really sad that they're not willing to fully own up to it and honor my bet as a full win when they know it's the right thing to do.

[Hhampuz]

I feel completely cheated and I'm extremely disappointed at how FJ is behaving & dealing with this situation, where a mistake was made on their end that cost me thousands of dollars in winnings.

Jesus christ man, would you sue the local convenient store if their lottery machine were malfunctioning and your ticket would have won $1mil that night? You're really on one with this and it's fucking insane.

YOU HAVE LOST NOTHING. Wake the fuck up and come back to reality, please.

[EpicChamp]

I feel completely cheated and I'm extremely disappointed at how FJ is behaving & dealing with this situation, where a mistake was made on their end that cost me thousands of dollars in winnings.

Jesus christ man, would you sue the local convenient store if their lottery machine were malfunctioning and your ticket would have won $1mil that night? You're really on one with this and it's fucking insane.

YOU HAVE LOST NOTHING. Wake the fuck up and come back to reality, please.

The odds were very reasonable at the time and far from a "technical error". They can claim that it was as a poor excuse for canceling my bet (when it was universally the same across all bookies), but that's just their opinion, especially because they never claimed or stated that there was a technical error in my bet cancelation email as their reasoning for canceling my bet, and this is a fact. If they knew it was a technical error, they should have explicitly stated that in the email, which they didn't. And even to this day, I still don't understand why De Jong ended up dropping below 1.7, but it's not up to me to decide the odds.

The point is that this was not a clear or obvious mistake as they claimed it is, and the odds were not ridiculously outside the "competitive" range (1.3-3.0) either, since there wasn't an "obvious" favorite to win this match.

Therefore, this bet should not have been canceled in the first place, much like NO other reputable & respected bookmaker canceled it for their users on that day either.

Geez, I wonder why not? Could it be that MAYBE it wasn't a technical error after all? (But rather a simple change/swing of odds instead, exactly as they claimed it was in the email?)

[Hhampuz]

The odds were very reasonable at the time and far from a "technical error". They can claim that it was but that's just their opinion and have never explicitly mentioned or stated this in my bet cancelation email. To this day I still don't understand why De Jong ended up dropping below 1.7, but it's not up to me to decide the odds.

The point is that this was not a clear or obvious mistake like they claimed it to be, and the odds were not ridiculously outside the "competitive" range either as there was no clear favorite to win.

Therefore, this bet should not have been canceled in the first place, much like NO other reputable & respected bookmaker canceled it for their users either on that day.

Geez, I wonder why? Could it be because maybe it wasn't a technical error after all? (But rather a simple change/swing of odds instead?)

Yes, let's play with the idea that you're right EpicChamp (you're not). This would mean that FJ goes through all of this, fabricating evidence (like the email from betradar) and spends all of this time on your absolute nonsense, for what? To screw over one player for ~0.06BTC? If you actually take a moment to look at how insane this all sounds - maybe you'd come to the realization that sometimes shit happens and in this particular case FJ has even offered you an "out" in the form of 25% of your deposit - something that is more than fair as if it were me I'd probably just tell you to bugger off.

[EpicChamp]

The odds were very reasonable at the time and far from a "technical error". They can claim that it was but that's just their opinion and have never explicitly mentioned or stated this in my bet cancelation email. To this day I still don't understand why De Jong ended up dropping below 1.7, but it's not up to me to decide the odds.

The point is that this was not a clear or obvious mistake like they claimed it to be, and the odds were not ridiculously outside the "competitive" range either as there was no clear favorite to win.

Therefore, this bet should not have been canceled in the first place, much like NO other reputable & respected bookmaker canceled it for their users either on that day.

Geez, I wonder why? Could it be because maybe it wasn't a technical error after all? (But rather a simple change/swing of odds instead?)

Yes, let's play with the idea that you're right EpicChamp (you're not). This would mean that FJ goes through all of this, fabricating evidence (like the email from betradar) and spends all of this time on your absolute nonsense, for what? To screw over one player for ~0.06BTC? If you actually take a moment to look at how insane this all sounds - maybe you'd come to the realization that sometimes shit happens and in this particular case FJ has even offered you an "out" in the form of 25% of your deposit - something that is more than fair as if it were me I'd probably just tell you to bugger off.

As I said, I appreciate the 25% offer - but the REAL loss for me is not just a stake of 0.067 BTC - but rather a winning amount of 0.174 BTC, which as of now is equivalent to $5,500 USD. It's even more surprising because while to me this is quite a lot of money, for them it's a fraction of how much they make each day, and I really don't see why they're refusing to pay my deserved win with so much resistance, when they know themselves very well that what they did against me is wrong & unethical.

It is far from "nonsense" because thousands of dollars are on the line, not a couple dozen or even a couple hundred.

Also as I mentioned, that email from betrader was sent on December 31st, more than a month after the match ended, at which point they can write & say whatever they want as an excuse. So to me, that screenshot does not justify the bet cancelation because it needed to have been sent on the day of (November 24th), not a month later.

I have a pretty good feeling that no email was sent to them by Betrader that day at all. Instead, FJ noticed this change of odds themselves and then manually decided to go and cancel this bet (without any "commands") because they realized that the odds suddenly changed against them; at which point they then waited 7 hours to cancel my bet instead of doing it right away. Therefore, I doubt that they received any commands from betrader to void this bet on that day, and the evidence to back this up is in the date of when the email they showed was sent to them.

[cryptofrka]

I don't think this is good precedent to set - you shouldn't have to payout odds errors (again assuming it was a valid error) just because the community (which is likely going to be player biased since people generally don't know all that much) thinks you should. It might be worth asking EpicChamp if they're interested in independent mediation, perhaps with a site like SBR that knows what they're doing. My *guess* is that they'd end up siding with FJ.

I kinda agree with you here. I never said companies should payout odds errors because the community wants it. I said I feel they should do it because in my view, you either run a legitimate business or you do not run a business at all. Bookies spend millions of dollars to get the odds right - to get the margins exactly where they want them to lure us in and make the odds look better than they are. That's their business, so I also feel that they should not hide themselves behind TOC when they get it wrong. They should pay out, not just FJ, any bookie that has made a mistake. Why? Because we're not in kindergarden and because that's how businesses should be run. If I put my apartments on Booking.com for 15 instead of 150 dollars, I would not be able to cancel it and say 'sorry'.

Also, I really did not wish to put a precedent of any sort. Both sides were saying the vast majority of the community agreed with them so I felt it might be a good way to test how we breathe. I never wanted it to be a public poll (nor anonymous for that matter).

[DarkStar_]

I kinda agree with you here. I never said companies should payout odds errors because the community wants it. I said I feel they should do it because in my view, you either run a legitimate business or you do not run a business at all. Bookies spend millions of dollars to get the odds right - to get the margins exactly where they want them to lure us in and make the odds look better than they are. That's their business, so I also feel that they should not hide themselves behind TOC when they get it wrong. They should pay out, not just FJ, any bookie that has made a mistake. Why? Because we're not in kindergarden and because that's how businesses should be run. If I put my apartments on Booking.com for 15 instead of 150 dollars, I would not be able to cancel it and say 'sorry'.

If we're going to talk business, all major sportsbooks void odds for being wrong. I've even had Pinnacle void for odds errors before. Sometimes as a gesture of goodwill, they'll pay errors, but everyone betting on errors shouldn't be upset if they end up being voided, especially if it's voided before the match starts.

You can argue the ethics of this all you want, but that's just how the industry is. I think the industry would be very different if books were forced to pay errors - margins would be way higher so the average player loses more at the expense of a few smart people writing bots to immediately find errors and max bet them.

[LEVSKI7]

the regulator is obliged to protect consumers by including in the license conditions that the bookmaker has no right to cancel bets and impose personal limits.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/sportsbet-ordered-to-pay-winnings-on-unfairly-cancelled-afl-bets-20191031-p536bt.html
I hope it happens sooner

[EpicChamp]

I kinda agree with you here. I never said companies should payout odds errors because the community wants it. I said I feel they should do it because in my view, you either run a legitimate business or you do not run a business at all. Bookies spend millions of dollars to get the odds right - to get the margins exactly where they want them to lure us in and make the odds look better than they are. That's their business, so I also feel that they should not hide themselves behind TOC when they get it wrong. They should pay out, not just FJ, any bookie that has made a mistake. Why? Because we're not in kindergarden and because that's how businesses should be run. If I put my apartments on Booking.com for 15 instead of 150 dollars, I would not be able to cancel it and say 'sorry'.

If we're going to talk business, all major sportsbooks void odds for being wrong. I've even had Pinnacle void for odds errors before. Sometimes as a gesture of goodwill, they'll pay errors, but everyone betting on errors shouldn't be upset if they end up being voided, especially if it's voided before the match starts.

You can argue the ethics of this all you want, but that's just how the industry is. I think the industry would be very different if books were forced to pay errors - margins would be way higher so the average player loses more at the expense of a few smart people writing bots to immediately find errors and max bet them.

Please read a few comments above where I explained why this was not actually a technical error to begin with (as well as countless of times on this + my own thread for other reasons as well), and should not be considered as such and used as an excuse or reason to cancel my bet.

They even wrote themselves that they canceled the bet because odds changed from 2.6 to 1.7 as their reason, and that's FAR from a "technical" error like being placed at 6.0 when you intended to make it 1.6 or less. There was 0 mention of anything relating to a technical error from them as the reason for canceling the bet in my email.

[cabalism13]

I feel completely cheated and I'm extremely disappointed at how FJ is behaving & dealing with this situation, where a mistake was made on their end that cost me thousands of dollars in winnings.

Jesus christ man, would you sue the local convenient store if their lottery machine were malfunctioning and your ticket would have won $1mil that night? You're really on one with this and it's fucking insane.

YOU HAVE LOST NOTHING. Wake the fuck up and come back to reality, please.

Another winner on the bugs' edge LoL.
@EpicChamp here, 🍌🍌🍌 have a banana maybe this can help you realize something that FJ doesn't owe you any.

Don't worry, I am going to end this discussion soon myself...

Oh Please...

[FortuneJack]

If odds really flipped by technical glitch, normally books, void the bet before start of the game or mail the user to give option of accepting new odds or void the bet. But here is situation is really different because of 50% cashout.

@FortuneJack was odds really wrong or it reduced continuously because of betting volume? If it was really wrong than you can void the bet technically even after user cashout the bet and revert the excess fund. But if  it was reduced so much because of betting volume than, EpicChamp deserve the that half bet stake back. Normally books offer goodwill gesture bonus in % of bet that was disputed, I saw you offered him 25% bonus, I think it's good if odds was really wrong. But if odds reduces because of betting volume than EpicChamp is right that his half bet must be refund.

Just 2 cent from my side.

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Here's the screenshot of the provider showcasing the odds error.



Unfortunately, there's no email within the betting time frame as usually betradar himself as well as we automatically annulled part of the data in a month which is not used that much, talking about the emails. However, we did ask the company representatives to once again state the fact of having the odds error as an email.

Thanks for your interest, though - means a lot to us!

[slaman29]

Based on that email, if the odds provider indeed say it was an error, then seems like there is no argument.

It is just strange the betting was voided later I guess.

Anyway, I agree with DarkStar, this has to be mediated by a recognized mediator, it doesn't serve anyone to have it publicly taken apart here and getting dirty laundry aired. I believe this has happened in the past before but because of terms and conditions, generally mediators side with the casino (as unfair as it sounds, unfortunately, most T&C as published reserves the right of casinos).

I would take the 25% and learn my lesson.

[EpicChamp]

Based on that email, if the odds provider indeed say it was an error, then seems like there is no argument.

It is just strange the betting was voided later I guess.

Anyway, I agree with DarkStar, this has to be mediated by a recognized mediator, it doesn't serve anyone to have it publicly taken apart here and getting dirty laundry aired. I believe this has happened in the past before but because of terms and conditions, generally mediators side with the casino (as unfair as it sounds, unfortunately, most T&C as published reserves the right of casinos).

I would take the 25% and learn my lesson.

That email was sent to them 1 month later which is way too late.

If this was actually a technical error and betrader notified this to FJ during the period when odds got changed + around the time I partially cashed out (it was a 5-hour difference btw), then FJ would have voided it right then & there without any delays.

But the fact that they didn't and then claimed a change of odds as their only reasoning to cancel my bet 7 hours later and 2 hours before the match was about to start, proves this was not a "technical" error like they claim it was, and therefore the bet should never have been canceled in the 1st place - which means I deserve to win my bet in full.

I also don't understand how they can possible say it was a technical error as a reason to cancel my bet, when the same exact odds & swings happened across all bookies universally, yet none of them canceled this bet for their users due to any "technical" errors, as it should be.

[bitterguy28]

I would take the 25% and learn my lesson.

Fair enough i guess for Both parties , FJ and the Winners is indeed may favor this if that's the consensus outcome.

Anyway i don't want to get involved in the arguments because i did not win that time but i Give my Vote now though will not reveal in what part i favor of.

Hope that FJ will soon be done on this because they are one of the respectable gambling site that i find here since i enter the online gambling and this forum.